Tim Dennis: Welcome to the Beer Guys Radio Show. We are happy to be here. We're happy to have you with us. We love to get together, have a beer, have a good time. Always a lot of fun. I am Tim Dennis. Mo Mic Nate, how are you doing?
Nate ‘Mo Mic Nate’ Ellingson: Doing well, Tim. How are you?
Dennis: Good. I knew that would throw Brian. I got a look. I knew I would. I knew I would, but we have Brian Hewitt. Brian, how are you doing?
Brian Hewitt: I'm doing well. And this week we're joined by Daniel Kopman. He's a professorial lecturer at American University's Kogod School of Business, and I hope I said that right. I'm not familiar with that school of business. But anyway, and also a senior policy advisor to the Worldwide Brewing Alliance, both of them very important topics for today. And we're going to discuss beer trends in the industry and laws and policy and a whole lot more. We've got a bunch of stuff. And Dan's got a long resume in the beer industry. We're going to have to touch on that, too. Thanks for joining us, Dan.
Dan Kopman: Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.
Hewitt: Absolutely. You know, we love talking to people that know much, much more than we do. We know a good bit within our narrow gauge, Dan. You know, within our narrow gauge. And when it comes to world beer policy, world trends and all of that, and it makes me think of some of the other folks that we know that you realize how little you know when you talk to someone that knows a ton. And like Stan Heronimus comes to mind. You know, Mitch Stills. Sitting down with those guys and talking, you're just like there's such so much knowledge there and we suck up all we can. So we appreciate it, Dan. And for those that may not be familiar with Dan by name, tell you a little bit about some places you may know him from. Dan was with, he was export manager at Young & Company Brewery in the UK. He was a Brewer's Association board member. He's been on a voting board member of the Beer Institute, CEO of Heavy Seas Beer Company, co-founder and CEO of Schlafly. And then senior policy I think is Brian Mitch and senior policy advisor for the World Brewing Alliance and a professor lecturer. So Dan, you've done a thing or two in your time here on this planet, correct, sir?
Kopman: I was lucky. I was in the right place at the right time. On a few occasions, doors opened up. I walked through them. That helped.
Dennis: It's a good place to be.
Hewitt: Yeah, absolutely.
Kopman: I've been very, very fortunate, very lucky. So no complaints.
Dennis: Awesome. And we're keeping Dan up late today. He's actually in Edinburgh. So we appreciate you staying up here to chat with us. But so much to cover, so much to cover. And you know, the World Brewing Alliance, I'm going to start there, Dan. Can you tell us what that is and what the purpose there is?
Kopman: So think of the World Brewing Alliance as the trade association of trade associations. We support all brewers around the world. And we support all the association. So we don't engage in national policy efforts, advocacy efforts, but we fill some space where there isn't a trade association. So if there's a country in the world where there isn't a brewing trade association, we fill that void. Our primary focus is on what we would call multilateral organizations. So the UN network, including the WHO, the World Trade Organization, International Monetary Fund, the OECD, the UN network for want of a better way to describe it, in which a lot of policy that ends up being enacted by countries around the world, that policy finds its start in a lot of these places. So for example, something I'm sure we're going to talk about tonight, no safe level of consumption of ethanol. That's probably something you're familiar with. You've seen it in the press. That started at the WHO. So a change in public health policy recommended best buys for want of a better way to describe it that come from the WHO and two member states. And our job at the World Brewing Alliance is to educate both the folks that work in these multilateral organizations and the country missions that are partners, that are members of the UN network. So wherever there's a UN network office like the WHO and Geneva, they are essentially, they call them missions as opposed to embassies, but they essentially perform the same function. So member states meet and discuss policy, they all contribute to the budgets. And different people have different opinions of the work they do. But ultimately a lot of the policy ideas that are generated at these organizations end up in legislation in different member countries. Our job at the World Brewing Alliance is to tell beer story and to see where we can influence policymakers and other thought leaders to understand why beer is different. And that's really why the World Brewing Alliance exists is that we're all on the same team essentially with our friends and wines and spirits. I'm talking about moderation. We want consumers to consume moderately, both in an occasion and over a lifetime, but beer is different. And we firmly believe that if you can steer consumers towards lower alcohol content beverages like beer, that you're going to reduce the harmful effects of alcohol consumption, whether that's in an occasion or whether that's over a lifetime. So that's our belief.
And so my role essentially in this small group is to provide support, generating economic research. So we have an economic research agenda that covers about 77 countries, about 80 percent of global beer production. And we track ethanol consumption per capita. We track share of ethanol consumption by beverage type. We track a number of other data points and other information that we then share with our trade association members and member brewers so that they have the information they need. The other part of my role is to ensure that we're communicating with all brewers, not just the largest brewers around the world, but also the small brewers, the craft brewers that I am so familiar with. And make sure that they're part of the advocacy effort. And we also then I spend a lot of time with our agricultural supplier partners. So we want to engage the whole value chain to advocate for beer. And if we can help them, whether that's maltsters or hop merchants with trade issues or other problems they're having, then we're available to help them as well. I never really thought about... I hope that helps a little bit.
Dennis: It does and I think it's fascinating because to be honest, I never really thought about a brewing group being... brewing in general being represented to the who or the UN at that level. Going into that and you mentioned the no ethanol consumption is safe. As consumers, we get such mixed signals depending on who's sending us those signals. You'll see an article, it's like, have you a nice piece of dark chocolate and a couple of glasses of red wine if you want to live 100 years? And you see the videos where it is a case of this lady just turned 140 years old and her secret is to have a cigar and a couple of Miller lights every day, things like that. So set the policies in... I like to know factual. I don't do this going to surprise a lot of people with everything I do in my life is not healthy or not the best thing for me. But I like being aware of what the risks are and I do try and mitigate that, you know, if it's something along those lines. So yeah, interesting. Thanks, Dan. Yeah, that was very fascinating to hear about.
Hewitt: What I really want to know is when you hear from the WHO that no amount of ethanol is safe and they're saying, hey, this is our new stance on it, what's your response from the World Brewing Alliance when you hear that? Because that's basically saying no beer is safe either. I'm like, how do you take that and how do you work with that? What do you do?
Kopman: Well, we started from the premise that prohibition doesn't work.
Hewitt: Fair enough.
Kopman: In many countries, you know, illicit alcohol still remains a big problem. And there are huge dangers with illicit spirits, especially illicit distilled products. So we start from that premise. So there's going to be consumption. And our view therefore is that we want to therefore encourage consumers to do so in a way that protects essentially all the social and economic benefits of beer, while at the same time ensuring that both policymakers and ultimately consumers have the information they need to make good choices, right? To make choices just like you were saying earlier. We want to make informed decisions about what we consume. And so understanding, making sure that the research that's available is being broadly transferred, whether that shows harmful effects or economic research or other social research that shows benefit. So, you know, we're not advocating for health benefits for ethanol. But there are other really important benefits, societal benefits that need to be taken into consideration when member, when countries are setting both regulatory policy and tax policy. Ultimately, that's what we're trying to call it influence. What we're trying to ensure that brewers have the best possible chance of success in the market. That's our job, right? And if beer is growing share vis-a-vis other alcoholic beverages, then we're probably doing a good job. If non-alcoholic beer, for example, which is a huge opportunity for brewers. If non-alcoholic beer sales are growing globally, then we're doing our job.
Dennis: Yeah, very interesting. Again, you know, I'm going to ask a question here that we've got from one of our viewers here, Dan. So Patrick's asking is there any move to be concise when saying something about like have a beer but only X amount per day? And like here in Georgia, we've got, you know, up to 14 percent ABV cap on that. So is there any kind of move for consistency and messaging with that?
Kopman: You know, I think you have to follow the dietary guidelines that are set by the USDA in the US. And those guidelines haven't changed for a very long time. And, you know, they're based on, you know, a known amount of ethanol per serving, right? So four to 5 percent ABV for beer, right?