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Drumm NcNaughton: My guests today are David Marchick and Angela Virtu from American University in DC. David’s the Dean of the Kogod School of Business, while Angela is a professional lecturer at Kogod’s Information Technology and Analytics Department. Six months ago, David and a committee of faculty members launched an initiative to integrate AI at the business school. They established the initiative in six weeks, and in six months they’ve incorporated AI into all majors at Kogod, ensuring all graduates know how to use AI platforms and tools ethically. These new AI integrated majors will launch this fall and will include more than 20 new and updated courses, certificates offerings for students, private sector partnerships, and faculty training. David and Angela joined me today to talk about how they’ve made these transformational changes in six months and how you too can do this at your own institution. Dave, Angela, welcome to the program.
David Marchick: Thanks for having us.
Angela Virtu: Happy to be here.
McNaughton: Looking forward to a great conversation on AI. You guys are at American University at Kogod, which I guess is your business school, is that correct?
Marchick: That’s correct. It’s named after a great real estate executive and leader named Robert Kogod.
McNaughton: Thank you. I didn’t know that. Thank you, Mr. Kogod for being willing to sponsor Americans Business School. You’ve got some great people there, and we’re looking forward to seeing how they’re transforming the school with artificial intelligence. Before we get into it, folks, if you could give us a little bit of background on who you are and how we got to this place to where you’re transforming the business school.
Marchick: I’m probably the least likely person to be a dean in the whole country. I’m not an academic. I did teach for four years at the Tuck School of Business. But my background is in private equity, as a lawyer and in government and I was just approached about the job and I thought this would be a great, fulfilling, interesting, and challenging thing to do for this next phase of my life and career. And it’s been wonderful, and they haven’t thrown me out yet and hopefully I don’t mess it up.
McNaughton: Yeah, it’s like the old change of command in the Navy. I had it. You got it. Don’t drop it.
Marchick: Exactly.
McNaughton: Angela, you’re a tech head.
Virtu: Yes, I am. So I spent my career building and deploying AI solutions for a bunch of different startups in the Washington DC area. And then I joined American universities faculty this past fall as an instructor in the information technology and analytics department. And then I’ve been a part of this AI initiative since around March, when we did the big kickoff, and I’m happy to be here, so thanks.
McNaughton: It’s my pleasure to have you both on the program. I am just amazed at what you guys are doing. AI is such a big thing right now. So many colleges are basically, you may as well hang garlic around your neck, that’s what they think about AI, but you’re embracing it. So how did this come about?
Marchick: It’s really quite interesting. I actually was just doing my goals for my boss, the provost, for the academic year, and I looked back at my goals for last year. to see how I did. Some things I did well, some things not so well, but the word AI wasn’t even mentioned in our strategic plan or goals. So what happened is we bring a lot of great speakers to school. We’ve had something like 30 CEOs speak in the last two years. Marriott and Ernst Young and Carlisle and just some great businesses. We had the president of Google who came, Kent Walker, and he said that, his boss has said that AI is akin to the discovery of fire and electricity. And I thought that’s kind of hyperbole, but maybe if it’s even 1 percent or 1/10th percent true, that’s a big deal. And then we had a CEO named Brett Wilson, who’s a venture capitalist. He’s built, taken public and sold to companies in the nexus of AI. He came and spoke and a student, a young, I think a sophomore or so, raised his hand and said, am I going to be replaced by AI? And Brett paused and looked at him and said, you’re not going to be replaced by AI, but you could be replaced by someone who knows AI if you don’t know AI. And at that moment, a bulb went off in my head, and I really, I’m not a techie and I’m not academic, but I basically said, we need to do something to prepare students because AI is going to be like reading, writing, and reasoning. It’s an essential skill. So I went to my senior associate dean, Parthiban David, who’s a wonderful guy and a traditional academic and I said, what do we do about this, we got to do something, and he said, let’s form a committee. And I’m like, oh, come on.
McNaughton: That’s an academic response for sure.
Marchick: I’m like, this is going to be like a two-year process with a 300-page report that nobody reads. And to his credit, he said, I’m going to give the committee six weeks. They need to come back with something short and actionable, and they did. And we had a great committee that came back and said we should embrace AI and incorporate it into the entire curriculum. We should develop two types of courses. Artisan courses, which are a light touch of AI, and Sage courses, where more than fifty percent of the course is based on AI. Let’s have them in the first year, in the core curriculum, in every department, and as electives. And I had that meeting, and I said, run as fast as you can, let’s do it. And we did it. And then we approached Angela, who actually knows what she’s doing, unlike me. And we said, would you be, something we’re creating, called the AI Faculty Teaching Fellow? So, you can train our faculty and bring experts in to train our faculty on AI so they can teach our students. And I’ll turn it over to you, Angela.
Virtu: Yeah, so as a part of this training, my goal is to get all of our faculty and all of our staff on board with the AI movement and make sure that we all are prepared and using it and understand how all of our disciplines are leveraging AI and In the real world in the business setting that way, we can do the best job possible to prepare all of our students. So they’re not the ones getting left behind with the advent of AI.
McNaughton: So that’s a major lift because you’re doing twenty plus courses.
Marchick: It’s a huge lift. And what we did is we asked people to raise their hands, faculty. And a bunch did, and then we encouraged a few others that didn’t raise their hands. So, I actually, in anticipation of this podcast, checked in with Parthiban David, the senior associate dean and he said, “everything’s on track. We have courses developed. We’re going to teach AI as part of, basically when the students get here, their orientation, we’re going to start them right away.” And we have faculty getting continuing education themselves this summer to be able to teach AI. Some of it is in Angela’s department which is the natural place where you would think that we would have programming or fundamentals of AI or fundamentals of machine learning. And that’s great, but I think the neatest part of this is that the other departments are doing it.
So in finance, we have a quantitative analysis using AI of finance and investments class. In our management course, we have a great business entertainment major. We’re on the Billboard top schools for business entertainment and AI is going to revolutionize the entertainment industry. That’s what the strike was all about. And so, one of our faculty in that field said, I’ll teach a course on AI in the music industry and the entertainment industry. So, it’s a whole new course. We have a faculty member who’s a forensic accounting expert who was part of the Madoff investigation. He’s talking to all the forensic accounting firms, the big four, about how they’re using AI to do forensic accounting. And think about forensic accounting. You’re trying to find that needle in the haystack, and that’s what AI does. It can process massive amounts of data and create coherent outputs.
McNaughton: I’m curious, you bring up an interesting point, and from Angela’s perspective, to do forensic accounting using AI, does it require reprogramming? What’s that process?
Virtu: So I’m not at all a forensic accounting expert, so I will defer that to all of our accounting colleagues, let’s say. But I know one of the main goals of using AI in that forensic field is to try to help them find the needle in the haystack. Like, how can we sift through all of the documentation, all of these numbers, all of these memos, and how can we find that one incongruency or that one inconsistency that would highlight that, I don’t want to say fraud, but the issue at hand, whether that’s fraud or whatever else being. In terms of how the AI can do that, there’s context, there’s ways in how you can feed the AI all of the context, all of the, here’s good examples, here’s bad examples, here’s the existing fraud patterns that we know, and they can use that as a kind of baseline to feed all of their current case or all their current documentation. Now, is that how they’re exactly doing it? Again, that’s not my expert play, so I could be off there, but from the tech side, that’s how I would approach it at least.
McNaughton: Okay. I’m sorry, Dave. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. It was just, you brought up a really interesting point and I wanted to dive down a little deeper on it.
Marchick: Yeah, I’ll give you one other example. We have a digital marketing course. That’s a course for, say, sophomores and juniors that are marketing majors. Or they could be business majors, but they want to take a specialization in marketing. If you think about how AI is going to change the field of marketing, it’s going to be radical. Let me give you an example. For one of the training sessions that Angela put together for our faculty and staff, we brought in a fellow named Ira Rubenstein, who’s now Senior Vice President for Marketing for PBS, and he ran marketing for Sony and Marvel. He’s part of the Motion Picture Association of America. He’s one of the best marketers in the country. He told a story, which for PBS, Ken Burns is a major source of content, and Ken Burns did a documentary on the Buffalo. So Ira has dozens of creative staff, several marketing agencies, what you would expect of a big content provider. He went to an image creation software, an AI software, and basically plugged in; give me an image, a Ken Burns like poster of an American Buffalo with a native American theme. Because the story of the Buffalo is inextricably tied with the history of indigenous people in the United States. And it came up with an image in 30 seconds and he printed it out and brought it over to his head of visual and said, do something like this. And four hours, they had something that would have taken weeks, 30 different images, endless debates. Then you send it out to your marketing PR firm and they play with it and spend 50,000 dollars. And it was done. And then all of the algorithms that you see when you go to Netflix, when they’re suggesting, here are the films that you might like based on what you’ve seen before. And when I go to Netflix, the films they suggest are very different than the films they suggest for my twenty-year-old son, which tend to be like Ben Stiller and Adam Sandler. And so, all of that is AI and PBS does the same, so that if you log into PBS’s website, they’re suggesting content for you. And then they’re using AI to write digital marketing campaigns, to write emails, to write communications, to communicate, and they’re using AI for customer service. And so our faculty is basically redoing their digital marketing course to incorporate AI because you can’t do digital marketing today without knowing AI. It’s an essential skill.
McNaughton: So this is really helpful, and I certainly hope listeners are as fascinated by this as I am. I’d like to go through the process that you use because it’s very clear that AI is going to be a major tool that businesses use, and we need to prepare our graduates for it. To create that shared vision across the school, you started off with a committee with representatives from all departments. Take us through that process, if you wouldn’t mind.
Marchick: So Parthiban David, who’s the senior associate dean asked a fellow named Erran Carmel, who’s a long time, great faculty member and a futurist, to chair this committee, along with Gwanhoo Lee, who’s the head of our IT department. And they asked each of the department chairs to give them a representative. And honestly, they just made it up. I wish I could say it was more sophisticated than that, but everybody’s making it up for AI.
McNaughton: Yeah.
Businesses and other organizations are running as fast as they can to incorporate it and figure it out. And the number of jobs that are going to be available for people that are fluent in AI is going to be staggering.”
David Marchick
Dean, Kogod School of Business
Marchick: I saw a data point that said that, if you take the big consulting firms, McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Deloitte, something like twenty percent of their jobs that they are advertising require AI right now.
McNaughton: Yeah. Don’t forget mine too.
Marchick: And yours too. We basically felt that this was a student-oriented initiative. Meaning we have great faculty who are technical programmers writing for the most blue-chip digital and IT journals. What one would imagine a professor at MIT doing and they’re great. That’s what they do, and they’re really good at that. But this is different. This is about preparing our students for whatever they do when they graduate that they can put AI on their resume. And then we’ll have certificates and badges, and we want them to be able to know AI and to put it on their resume so they’re more competitive in the workforce. That’s the goal. It’s a student output, student uplift initiative.
McNaughton: Which it should be if we stopped back and think about the purpose of higher ed is to help transform people, prepare them for life, prepare them for their jobs, et cetera. So, you had your committee, how did you decide on the twenty courses?
Marchick: Honestly, the committee dreamed it up. I didn’t decide that. They presented it to me, and I thought, sounds good, twenty seems beefy, substantial, and then they also really focused on diversity of offerings. So, every single department is going to offer AI in their field, marketing, management, our sustainability group, field entertainment, finance. And it’ll be first year, second year, third year, fourth year, and grad school. It’ll be throughout the curriculum. Now, if a student really wants to be really techie, like Angela, I’m the least qualified person to talk about this, I couldn’t get my mouse to work today. We have faculty that are highly technical that can train them to go be a programmer or go manage an IT system or manage a group of programmers. Most of our students are general business. They go work for Ernst and Young and they go work for Amazon and Booz Allen or they start their own companies. They will have the benefit of learning AI in every single field of business.
McNaughton: Starting off with freshman courses and going all the way through the program.
Marchick: Starting off with orientation. We actually did an online orientation. We did an online seminar, two days, and we divided every deposited student, every student that had sent their deposit in to listen in. And some of them listened for two days, some of them listened for an hour, but they had the opportunity to get exposed to it.
McNaughton: Now you talked about Sage courses versus Artisan courses. Some examples of that, Angela, cause that, this is in your bailiwick, please.
Virtu: Yeah, so the whole idea behind the Sage and the Artisan was that in our comprehensive offering of different AI courses, we didn’t want to just rely on the super technical courses. People like me who want to build the actual artificial intelligence models or systems. And so when we were thinking about how we incorporate this through all of our departments, through all of our programs, and have it be accessible for everyone, regardless of their level of technical, interest, if not capabilities, we coined Artisan to be that lighter touch. So it might be case studies about how a specific industry is using AI, the ethical or responsible considerations of it in their domains or in their fields. So it’ll be sprinkled in a course or a subject throughout, but it’s not going to be the entirety of the course. So an example of this would be something like one of our business law courses, where they will be using artificial intelligence throughout the course to help them write and analyze contracts and understand how to not only edit and write those contracts, but to cite the AI use as well, because that’s going to be more prevalent, especially if they’re going into to big four areas and disciplines. When it comes to our Sage, that is that next tier, that next level of how deep we’re going with the artificial intelligence. So those tend to be our more technical track courses. But again, I don’t want to say every single course is definitely super, super technical, it just means we’re going to be going deeper into those AI considerations. So that could be something like the forensic accounting class that Dave had mentioned earlier. It can include some of our business and entertainment programs. It can include like those Python or hard programming courses as well. So that’s really just those deeper dives. It’s almost 50 percent of the course, if not more, using and talking about the AI as that core competency. I’m a frustrated techie. I’ll, I will admit it. My undergraduate was in physics, and then I flew airplanes for a living for many years. And so when you start getting into this tech stuff, I go, “Oh, this is fun. I want to do this. I want to do this,” but I know that I don’t have the capability of it. But I will say, just to add onto what you’re talking about, I’m starting to use AI more and more in my business as well. For a podcast, for example, I will, clean it up using AI tools. So we have a decent transcript. I’ll upload it and say, give me a 1800-word article that summarizes this and it usually comes back pretty good.
Marchick: Yeah, it’s incredible.
Virtu: That’s one of my favorite use cases is just like helping with idea generation, right? That’s where I started with one of my classes last year. We have a really big project called the ETag Cup where students need to pick an emerging technology, do a really big deep dive, and do a proposal as to why someone might want to invest in AI or artificial intelligence, for example. And usually in my class you’ll get maybe two or three unique topics spread across the seven groups, just because it’s what we’ve talked about, it’s been in the news, it’s like these kind of, I don’t want to say surface level topics, but things that you hear in conversation. But by plugging in specs. For the project into a ChatGPT or say, “Hey, I’m interested in cosmetics,” or “I’m interested in podcasting,” right? Like what are some emerging technologies that maybe we should consider two to three years out? The breadth of topics that I got this past semester was far deeper far more compelling than in previous semesters.
McNaughton: And Dave, I would imagine with your business background that you have, you can start to see far more applications for AI and how that can be applied to students.
Marchick: A hundred percent. Let me give you another example, from a training that, that Angela, coordinated. We had a young associate, 26 years old, come and train our faculty on AI and finance. Okay, this is like The Karate Kid when the student becomes the teacher, okay. I was talking to her and she said basically AI is doing what I did when I was 22. So Angela had her come in and give an example and she works for an investment firm. Let me just give you the example. Let’s say you’re buying an auto parts company that sells to the truck industry. So F150s and others. So she said, my boss would come to me and say, go look at the sales trends, profit margins, regions, give me analysis of the truck industry so we can understand if we sell this particular part, what are our end markets looking like? She said, so what I used to do when I’d go to Ford and GM and Toyota, I’d go to their earnings reports. I’d scan down to see how their light trucks are doing. I’d enter that into a database. And then I’d do that for the last 16 quarters. And I’d do that for 8 or 10 different companies.
And it would take me 3 to 5 weeks. She did it in the training session in about 3 minutes.
McNaughton: Whoa.
Marchick: Okay? So then she said, all right, now put this into a PowerPoint that I can present to my boss. And she did that in about three minutes. And so if you think about how this is going to create extraordinary efficiencies to underwrite stocks, to underwrite businesses, to analyze sales trends and markets, it’s extraordinary. And again, this person majored in finance, she was not a technical person, but she learned how to use AI for her job, and then she taught our faculty. And our finance faculty had their mouths on the floor. They were like, holy crap, this is incredible. And we have investment classes at Kogod, and we have students learn how to underwrite REITs and stocks and private investments, do discount cash flow analysis to value companies, and they’ll now be able to use AI to do that. Because if they go into the workforce, they’ll need to do that. And again, Angela’s example of the ideation is also a perfect one. Most academia, when chat GPT became part of the lexicon, said this is terrible, it’s going to allow students to cheat. We did the opposite. We said students are going to use this and people in the workforce are going to use it. I asked my kids, they said, we use it all the time. So whether professors like it or not, students are going to use it. So just embrace it, create rules, and the fact that they came up with many more ideas in Angela’s class is great in my view.
McNaughton: You sound like, Madeline Pumariega from Miami Dade College. When she took over in 2000, they started thinking, okay, what’s going to be needed. And whereas they’re doing something similar to what you are, but they’re also doing certificates, et cetera, in AI, and it’s a game changer for their students.
Marchick: That school has extraordinary impact. I think they have 300, 000 students. It’s an amazing university. So thank you, I’ll take that comparison any day. Thank you very much.
McNaughton: My pleasure. And, the change management is always a huge issue with this. You’ll always have your early adopters, you’ll have your wait and see, you’ll have your cynics, you’ll have your skeptics. But when you have a demonstration like what you did with that woman from finance and plotting it out, how can you, how can people not take that on board?
Marchick: Academics can find a way to not do something, right. Really? I’ve never heard that. Look, we have 90 faculty at Kogod and I bet you 70 to 80 are very open to this. I don’t know, what do you think, Angela? Have you had people roll their eyes at you and not respond?
Virtu: I mean, over the summer it’s a little more opt in, so I think we tend to get the individuals who are a little more excited, but no, no matter what company, what organization, you’re always going to have that curve of a few people who may be a little more reluctant or might not be as excited about change as the rest of us are.
But I think the thing to really be proud of, from our perspective, is that we’ve gotten the majority of our faculty really excited about this and by doing that every single one of our students, every single semester will probably be taking a course that has some sort of AI in it.”
Angela Virtu
Professor of Information Technology and Analytics, Kogod School of Business
Virtu: Right, so it might not be every single professor all the time, but when they’re taking a Kogod class every semester, one of those would be in there, right?
Marchick: And I would say the student response has been incredible. So our first year class this year is going to be, 25 percent above the previous 10 year average. So students and parents are very excited, but we actually unveiled this right before we had an open forum for students and families. Usually you get a question on accounting and finance. 80 percent of questions were on AI from students and families. They’re very excited about this and they see it as an indication of the kind of entrepreneurial spirit of Kogod and American University. And also the parents basically said to me, “Hey, I think you’re going to equip student to get a better job. And in a business school, that’s ultimately what we’re trying to do.
McNaughton: And I think it’s just amazing that you’re going to have all of these 20 courses and you started the course change process, I would guess, probably, April somewhere in there.
Marchick: Yeah. March, April.
McNaughton: You’re going to have all of these ready, and these courses are going to get rolled out, these 20 courses, to your incoming freshman class, as well as everybody else for fall term. That is six months for major changes?
Marchick: Yeah. It’s unbelievable. It’s great. Major changes. Yeah.
McNaughton: You obviously have had a few challenges going forward with this. What are some of those challenges that you’ve had and how have you dealt with them?
Marchick: I think a big challenge was speed. We needed to run not walk. We had a lot of debate about how do you define Artisan versus Sage. What is a Sage course? Is that 80 percent AI? Is it 20 percent? So we landed on 50 percent. Is that the perfect definition? I don’t know. I basically said to the faculty and to the department chairs,” If we don’t get it right, we can adjust like we’re learning”.
I think that another challenge was faculty coming to Angela or me and saying, “All right, I guess I need to do something differently than I’ve been doing it”. And that’s hard for a lot of people, but overall the reaction has been, I think, very positive.
What other challenges did I miss, Angela?
Virtu: From my perspective on just keeping all of our faculty and staff abreast of the AI influx, it’s just the every single day, the winds change ever so slightly, or you have a new technology or you have a new underlying LLM. And so one of the things that we’ve really been focusing on in all of our trainings is those core AI foundational skills and making sure all of our faculty and staff are AI literate, and no matter what tool they choose to use or whatever underlying LLM they’re using with that tool, they are good to go. So I think, putting the blinders on, for lack of a better term, and being able to just get those core foundations in has been super, super helpful, albeit challenging, because I always get shiny object syndrome when I get, the new version of Chat GPT or the new version of Claude or Perplexity or like whatever the tool is. And then I think Dean Dave just mentioned is, we have to be okay not really knowing if this is the right approach, right? We’re very experimental right now. We’re trying a whole bunch of new things all at once, and I’m sure we’re gonna get a few things wrong. Like he said, maybe our SAGE and Artisan definitions are good for the first semester, but then when the technology changes, maybe we’re gonna have to revamp them or add more courses or change the definition a little bit.
So I think just that level of adaptability and being comfortable in the land of the unknown has been challenging, not only for us as the leaders of the initiative, but for everybody else who is looking for answers when there isn’t any, right? We haven’t had any major court cases say, this is exactly how we’re using AI and this is how it’s responsible and, no, actually we’re not using it in the entertainment industry or whatever it may be.
Lots of questions and few answers at the moment. But that’s what kind of makes it exciting and cool at the same time.
McNaughton: You have that old saying, and Dave, you can help me out with this. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
Marchick: Exactly. Exactly. I mean we sent a very clear message to the faculty and the staff that we’re going to fail in some of this. We’re making some of it up as we go along. Some of it will be great and we can adjust. And we’re going to do that, but that’s how a business would work, that’s how a podcaster, you didn’t start being an expert podcaster. You figured it out, got better, adjusted. And so we’re doing the same thing. And we’ll tell our students that. This is all so new. AI and machine learning has been around forever. But the accessibility of the new tools is what’s new.
The fact that you have image generating AI. The fact that you have specialized finance AI that can underwrite investments. The fact that you have forensic accounting AI. The entertainment industry, it’s going to look very different in the next two to three years because of AI. And our faculty will need to be current and stay tight with their industry contacts so they can be relevant. And so our students can be best prepared. Ultimately, this is all about preparing our students to be better equipped for the workforce. That’s 100 percent the goal.
McNaughton: And if we lose sight of that one basic fact that it’s all about the students, we fail them and we fail as institutions.
Marchick: 100 percent.
McNaughton: This has been a fabulous conversation. I so much appreciate your taking the time. As we always do, three takeaways for presidents and boards.
Marchick: Three takeaways. Okay. It’s okay to fail. Take risk. And it’s all about the students. Go for it, Angela.
Virtu: I would say, get your hands on the tools. Push the bounds on those tools. I would say, go with speed, and be okay with failure.
McNaughton: Very good. Embrace the unknown. You gotta do it.
Virtu: Absolutely.
McNaughton: So what’s next for the two of you? What’s next for American? You talked about doing certificates and badges and other things like that. But, knowing the two of you as I do, I know there’s way more going on in your minds as far as what’s next.
Marchick: We’re very focused on a few initiatives. We have a great sustainability program at AU. We received an award for the top curriculum in the country last year.
McNaughton: Wow. Congrats.
Marchick: AI is a fantastic initiative that wasn’t on our radar screen. As I mentioned, I didn’t have it in my goals. It wasn’t in our strategy document. We are rebuilding our real estate program, we’ve hired some great new faculty. We have some openings for new AI faculty. We’re putting our money where our mouth is and we’re hiring more faculty. And we’ll be adapting and adjusting and innovating to help our students. That’s what’s new.
McNaughton: That’s great. Angela, what’s on your plate?
Virtu: All eyes are on the fall. I’m super excited about these curriculum updates and just learning about what’s working and what’s not working. And I think the other thing is, Kogod’s been very fast in our AI adoption and our AI push, and I’m excited to, do some cross pollination with some of the other schools at American University.
Our CAS program, that’s our College of Arts and Sciences, they have some really good experts there who are doing stuff in AI in the CompSci department. I think there’s a lot of ways how we can, leverage the other experts at our campus as well.
McNaughton: Those are all great things. Folks. Thanks so much, really appreciate your taking the time. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Let’s think about doing it again early next year and you can give me the results of a Q1, term one, fall one, whatever y’all call it.
Marchick: That’d be great. We’ll tell you all the things we did well and all the things we need to fix.
McNaughton: Very good. Dave, Angela, thank you so much for being on the program. I really appreciate your time.
Marchick: Thanks so much. Thanks for having us.
McNaughton: Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening today and a special thank you to David Marchick and Angela Virtu from the Kogod School of Business at American University. David and Angela, what y’all have done is just amazing and I look forward to being able to talk with you about the results that you’ve had with these in the next few months. Join me next episode when I start a two part series on international students and welcome Caitlin Anderson to the program. Caitlin is the founder of Auxilium Education, an education consultancy that serves international graduate business school applicants. And Caitlin will be joining me to talk about how institutions can improve their recruiting of international students, something of great importance to many institutions as their enrollment of traditional and graduate students from the US is declining. Thanks for listening. See you next episode.