Scott: Hello, and welcome to Episode 98 of Communicast, the podcast dedicated to enhancing communication skills. I'm your host, Scott D'Amico, President of Communispon. Today I'm joined by Caron Martinez, Senior Director of the Center for Professionalism and Communications at American University's Kogod School of Business. From her diplomatic beginnings at US embassies, to her leadership in shaping communication skills for future business professionals. Caron brings deep, well-rounded experience. In this episode, we explore how preparation and empathy fuel effective communication, how AI intersects with emotional intelligence and creativity, and Caron's process for coaching powerful feedback and adaptability. Whether you're navigating generational differences, leadership transitions, or the rise of AI in the workplace, this conversation offers practical strategies to elevate how you connect and communicate. Let's dive in. Caron, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Caron: Scott, it's a pleasure. 

Scott: Really looking forward to our conversation. Before we jump too far into it, maybe just tell the listeners a little bit about you, your career journey, and the great work that you're doing today. 

Caron: Absolutely. I like to tell my students that I'm still figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. And I then segue into having excellent communication skills to give me that adaptability and flexibility. I studied political science and English as an undergrad, and took the foreign service exam, and went directly into diplomatic life. So I served in three US embassies as a young, but very committed and very enthusiastic foreign service officer. And my job was to explain US policy to international audiences. And I went through a sort of a boot camp for Spanish. I had grown up hearing Spanish, but I was not a Spanish speaker myself. I just really fed my curiosity about different cultures and people. And married someone that I met at the US Embassy in Mexico City, who together we went to the embassy in London, where I did my first of two master's degrees. And there I studied international social psychology. So, the psychology of small groups. How do we get along? What do we bring to a group? What motivates us? And my thought was I would go into organizational change management consulting. By that time, we had three children, and I did a second master's in creative writing because I've always been a storyteller. And I've always loved other people's stories. And that catapulted me at George Mason University into being a university-level teacher, which, to be candi,d was a great fit for my life as a mom of three active boys. We had summer vacation together and other holidays.

and from there into higher ed, telling stories, listening to people, appreciating cross-cultural communication. And now in the business school, appreciating the strategy around that. Setting goals, creating businesses that make a real difference. We talk at Kogod and American University about making changes in business, bringing in social factors and climate, and sustainability, and of course, now, AI, which is such an exciting part of higher education. 

Scott: What a fascinating journey, I must say. That's so exciting to hear. And I love where that journey brought you into higher education. Having started my career as a classroom teacher, worked in adult-focused higher education for over a decade. I have kids that before I know it, they're going to be in college. And as I think about this, especially with the work that we do with working with organizations to help equip their employees with the skills to communicate effectively, I just love talking with folks about education and communication skills and how we make sure that we really are equipping people, students, young people, with those skills as early on as possible. So that when they get into the world of work or whatever it is they decide to do post-school, that they have those in their toolbox because they make such a difference. And I can just imagine just from your career, from working in these foreign embassies to your graduate degrees, I'm just looking at all the notes that I jotted down here. Working in the universities, you've encountered lots of really, really strong communicators. So when you hear that, when somebody says, you know, so-and-so has great communication skills or they're a strong communicator, what's the image that comes into mind for you?

Caron: So it might surprise you for me to say that the last thing I think about is skilled verbal abilities. If you can't have done your homework in advance to know who you're speaking to and what they value, so that you are prioritizing a connection with them, whatever that connection may be. And I'm going to get real old school on you for a minute and talk about Aristotle and audience context and purpose in any persuasive situation. And let's face it, any speaking situation is persuasive. I want to persuade you to listen to me. I want to persuade you to hear what I have to say. I won't go all the way to sales, but I'll go to persuasion. And for that, I have to know what language you speak, what jargon, what terms, what industry are you in? What are the problems you're facing? And that is my way of showing I empathize with you. I see you. So before a word comes out of my mouth, it has to be that preparation. And then in the situation, I need to be listening. I need to be asking good questions and listening to your answers. And I think that if we approach any communication situation with preparation, with listening, with empathy, then we get to, of course, we want to be conversational. Nobody wants to be talked at. So we talk to our students about varying their pitch and getting excited and speaking more quickly, and then slowing down. And the value of a pause and the value of their data, evidence, and visually how they're presenting that. So it's a total package. What I'd like to tell students is being a great communicator is just like playing the piano, playing lacrosse, singing in a choir. It doesn't matter. Someone showed you what to do. You put in the hours of practice. You got feedback and coaching, and you did it better after that. So I never try to accept when a student says, I just am not good at speaking. I'm just not a good writer. There are skills and techniques you can learn and practice.

Scott: You are totally speaking my language. I'm like, okay, we need to have her come over and do a commercial for Communispawn because spot on, right? Everything that we talk about with our clients is that these are skills that 100% can be taught. You need to understand the right way or correct way to do things. Then you need to practice just like anything. You got to flex those muscles for them to work. And I talk a lot about preparation when it comes to communication because, yeah, typically people think, oh, they're a gifted communicator. They're just natural on stage. Nope. They were given lots of opportunities, likely when they were very younger. As they got older, they started to take those opportunities. They practiced. They got the reps in. They got feedback. They incorporated the feedback and so on and so forth. But when you think about preparation, as I go into any type of meeting and having a career in sales and sales leadership, I would prep for the meeting on three different levels. I'm thinking, okay, what's the industry in which this company operates? Okay. What company, what's going on with the company that this person works for? And then what do I know about them? Where are they from? What's their background? What type of role? If I look at their LinkedIn profile, what do people say about them? You can learn a lot from people's recommendations on their LinkedIn profiles, how they comment on other people. So you can start to learn what drives them, what motivates them. And that's going to tweak and enhance how you phrase a question, both from a tonality standpoint, as well as just the verbiage of it. Right? Small little tweaks based on what you know about someone can have a big difference. I think you mentioned Aristotle. We have a program here called Socratic Selling Skills, based on the Socratic method of focusing in on your audience, asking questions, and kind of leading them through that process. So absolutely love it. Spot on. 

Caron: Right. Nobody wants to feel like they're getting one size fits all. We all want to be seen and understood. And sure, as you say, with your three levels, there are industry problems that you're going to be facing in business that the next person is going to be feeling. But your approach, your people, your history, your niche, knowing who your customers are, that's all different. And my job as a communicator is to understand that.

Scott: Absolutely. And as you're thinking about with the students that you're working with today, you're preparing them likely for the workforce. You know, what are you seeing, whether it's just your feedback that you're getting from students, or if you have the school has employer partners or you're bringing in subject matter experts to help perhaps inform curriculum. When it comes to communication skills, what are the key things that either are maybe missing or that you're hearing from employers that this is really what we need young people to come into our workforce with these skills in hand? 

Caron: Yeah. We just gave a presentation myself and the head of careers at the business school where I am now. And Scott, let me quickly answer in my answer about who I was and all the things I've done. And I neglected to say my current role, which is I am the senior director of a center called Professionalism and Communications at the Kogod School of Business, which is American University's business school. And the fact that we even have a center called that in the business school shows you how important our leadership and faculty understand those skills to be. In other words, they're non-negotiable right out of the gate. Our communication and professionalism skills of our students are primary. They're as important as their accounting and finance knowledge. And the reason for that is that, coming and going in organizations, we are still people dealing with people. Yes, we have machines that make us more productive and efficient. We have artificial intelligence right now, which Kogod is very excited to infuse into its business school as a national leader. Now, what does that mean? Does it open up the gates? Everybody uses AI all the time. It does not. It means, and to get back to your critical question about what is important for students to have in terms of the power skills of human relationships. Students need to be able to critically think they need to show and develop their creativity. They need emotional intelligence so that they are listening and getting along with and collaborating, because the final thing, teamwork, is how we work. We're in teams 100 percent of the time. You've heard, and I know a few children as well. Everybody hates a group project. But guess what? Life is a group project. And so your ability to understand your role, something we call situational awareness, or the ability to read the roo,m is critical. And so very much what we are doing from their first semester as business students is we are talking to them about professionalism and communications are the power skills of business. And you're going to spend four years practicing those and getting feedback on them because they're going to be as important as any internship, any report, any part-time job to get to the career that you want. 

Scott: And in the context that you talked about specifically, I think around AI and how AI is being incorporated seemingly into every aspect of life currently, you touch on a few things with the skills that you really are working on with students around creativity, emotional intelligence, teamwork, and I can't even read my own handwriting right now, but I forget the other one. But those things that... 

Caron: Critical thinking, creativity, yeah. 

Scott: Critical thinking, creativity. Critical thinking, yes. Now that makes sense when I look at my scribbles. Critical thinking, creativity, emotional intelligence, and teamwork. You think of that through the lens of incorporating AI. All four of those skills are critically important for AI to be an effective tool in your tool belt, so to speak, because the output of especially a generative AI type of system is only going to be as good as the input. So if you aren't understanding how to effectively prompt it, if you don't have the emotional intelligence to know when you should use it, how much you should use it, how it should be incorporated into it, when does it make sense? And understanding that this is part of our team, right? In reality, in the workforce today, AI is kind of part of the team now. So having those skills baked in, for me, moving into this age of AI is just critically important. 

Caron: Right. A hundred percent. And let me just tell you on a granular level, a couple of the things we're doing, because those are big concepts, right? Critical thinking about AI, things like that. We have our AI use for our courses, which are designated either AI artisan. I'm getting into the AI world in this finance course, using them as a tool. AI Sage might be an upper-level financial modeling course, where, for speed and accuracy, I'm asking the AI to look at 70 financial models, after which I will use my human reasoning skill and collaboration in the group to recommend three strategic ideas. So the conversations that we are having with our students as faculty and staff center around learning outcomes. What do we want you to learn? Because here's a critical difference between the business world and higher education. The business world prizes productivity and efficiency. But a lot of things you're doing in higher ed are a struggle. And it's hard. It's hard to find a thesis statement. It's hard to brainstorm a topic. Those things are a struggle, and they need to be, because at the end of that route, I've learned how to do the thing. I've learned how to discern my argument. I've learned how to bring voices into the conversation. So we're very interested at Kogod in doing something called scaffolding, where we're interested in the proces,s and we break it down into project pieces. So you're not going to have a Kogod professor say, write about the pros and cons of expanding Best Buy into Korea.

That is so chat GPT-able. And as a student who may be interested very much in efficiency and not that invested in the course, or is working three jobs, you never know what students are going through. It's too easy for them to say, ‘Hey, ChatGPT, what are the reasons Best Buy would do well in Korea?’ We don't want them to do that. We want them to think about Best Buy in Korea, incorporate their cultural knowledge, something we call pestle factors, political, economic, social, technological forces, and be speaking about that, perhaps in class with their teammates. So they go into the project, maybe write a first draft, and then they go to AI. What are we missing? What criticisms do you have? And one thing we're really excited about is that more and more higher ed is using a ChatGPT function as a tutor, as a mentor. One professor at Kogod who teaches senior-level negotiations doesn't allow the use of AI early in the course. But later on, she uses the ChatGPT and other tools. Perplexity Enterprise is one we're really excited about having a partnership with at Kogod, as a negotiation sparring partner. So you feed into the situation. You feed into the prompt the non-negotiables, the reason why. And the AI plays that part, and it's muscle memory. It's flexing. It's practice. And so you can do both. You can be an AI-forward school, which we are, and then encourage students to have judgment about how and why, and where, as well as guidelines. We have something called the AI disclosure form that many Kogod faculty are using, and we want students to disclose. Here's where I decided to use it in line with your guidelines, professor. Here's where I didn't. Here's where it was useful. And critique the tool. 

Scott: The thing that excites me about that is we're now going to have students entering the workforce that I think are going to be able to help inform how organizations are using AI. Right? There's obviously very large organizations. They have the resources. They have the teams. They've built out systems and processes and roadmaps and workbooks and rules and guidelines. Not every company has that. There's so many small, medium-sized companies that are just, quite honestly, struggling with one. What's the benefit to our organization of using AI, a ChatGPT-type tool? But then also, how do we systematically incorporate it so that it does make sense, it doesn't open us up to liability, it doesn't make us kind of lose our edge? I absolutely love that students are going to be really coming out with just understanding the ability to build out how to effectively use these tools and put some structure around it. That's really cool. 

Caron: Scott, I love you're saying that. I'll just add one quick thing. We know that there's many generations at work right now, but the boomers, the Gen X, the millennials, here come the what is this new alpha generation coming along? Right? We know that businesses appreciate the kind of digital native status of these young people. They know their way around tech. They can help. But I love this idea of AI has come into the world, and let's say I'm an established business, but I'm trying to figure out how to use it for my advantage, for my company, and to have students having practiced, again, audience, context, purpose. What is my goal? Who are we doing this project for? How can AI help? Is going to be a tremendous value add for our young people. 

Scott: Absolutely. Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit, we've talked about what we're doing to equip folks today to prepare for success throughout their career. If you think through your career journey, what has been kind of the key communication skill that has really helped you to be successful and to be where you are today? 

Curiosity, number one. I was a second-generation Mexican-American girl who grew up in Southern California. My dad and mom were first-generation in healthcare. My dad became a doctor, my mom a nurse. But I kind of ran away from home to go to college in Massachusetts when I was 18. And I think I did that just because I wanted to know what was at the end of the rainbow. From there, I gained independence and a sense of excitement about other people that all of that strangeness just had so much appeal for me. So I took the foreign service test. I lived in Ecuador, Mexico, London. I traveled to China. Took other trips to other countries in Latin America in my spare time. It's a curiosity about who are you. What do you think the way you do? What can we see as commonalities? What are the issues that we differ on? Why is that? What are we trying to solve together? And I think being driven by just the idea generation around people that are very different, contexts that are very different, has been a real advantage in my life. 

Scott: And a lot of times, people don't think of curiosity as a communication skill. For me, it is 100 percent a communication skill. And for me, I've always had this struggle between one being a very naturally curious person. I want to understand how things work, why things happen, what is. I know I drive my wife and kids crazy about how I'm always just digging into things and taking things apart. And just really trying to understand stuff because I'm curious. I have no idea why, but I'm curious. But then also being a natural problem solver. My initial reaction when I hear somebody is always, I want to try and solve that for this person. And it's something that you touched on briefly earlier is the importance of pausing. When you are communicating, great communicators are people that slow down and pause. So if you're like me and you struggle kind of between, yeah, I am curious. I like to know things, but I also like to solve problems. Pausing is a tremendous thing to work on. Being comfortable with silence will allow your brain time to process. And where normally you would just jump in with a reaction or a solution, one, you're going to be able to read the other person a little bit better. Are they looking for a solution? Or are they just looking to someone to talk to, or maybe to kind of talk through it? It's going to allow you to start to think of questions and then just slow your brain down. And as you mentioned, actually listen. It's a novel idea. When you ask questions, it's important that you really do pause and listen for what the other person is saying. 

Caron: So Scott, I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that we do at our center is we do one-on-one tutoring and coaching. And we do that with a staff of student tutors. We have about 35 graduates and undergraduates who are all students themselves. And we train them and choose them based on their emotional intelligence and their abilities to speak and read wonderfully. But one of the things that we really focus on is giving and receiving feedback. Because, believe it or not, when our alums come back to see us from the working world, it doesn't matter what sector, nonprofit, government, private, tech, startups, they don't ask us, they don't tell us, thanks for making me a good writer. Thanks for making me a good speaker. They say, ‘Thank you for making me a person that knows how to give and receive feedback.’ Because I'm doing that 360 in my career. I'm listening and giving feedback to clients, managers, the staff that I have, my colleagues. And we do that with an acronym called QUIPS, which is questioning, which is what if and what about, which is I statements. What I'm hearing you saying, it's say back. But the P is for pausing, for waiting, especially culturally. We as Americans are eager to cut people off, to show that we really understand what they're talking about. Other cultures are much more reserved, much more introverted. We also talk about being in a global economy now. Members of your team may need time to translate what you're asking them in their head, formulate their answer, and then respond to you. So that little pause of silence shows tremendous respect for that cognitive process that they're going through. And just to sit back and wait, even after they've started answering. Because maybe, in the words of vernacular eloquence, Peter Elbow, a compositionist that we love, I understand what I think as I hear myself speak. And so to give someone the gift of vernacular eloquence is an incredible part of peer review. As is say back, kind of a checking. So what I hear you saying is, we should expand Best Buy into Korea. The person on the other end can either say yes or no. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Great. Validation. You're listening. I'm communicating well. Or no, it comes with calculated risks. I'm not sure that's the right strategy. So either way, to say with an I statement, here's what I hear you saying, and have the other person respond to that is really a powerful listening tool.

Scott: As you mentioned, it really does validate. And that people want to be heard. At the end of the day, people want to feel like they are being heard. And when you say that, it does the two things. It allows me to make sure my understanding was correct, because sometimes I may have misunderstood. But then it signals to you that I indeed was listening. And that's very, very powerful. And when it comes to the pausing, and it's hard. A lot of people struggle with this. A couple of things I recommend. One is try to record some of your interactions. If you're on a Zoom call or something like that. And I will say, over the past several years, doing a lot more virtual meetings, I see things in people where when I'm talking, I can see them. They're ready to just jump out of their skin. I can tell they've stopped listening. They're waiting for me to stop talking so they can jump in and give their response. So if you feel yourself leaning forward in your chair when someone else is speaking, or your hands are starting to come up, or you're biting your lip, those are all telltale signs that you're probably not listening. You need to slow it down, back it up, and pause. You'll learn a lot if you just start paying attention to some of the physical mannerisms that you have, that the people that you're interacting with have. It kind of works both ways. 

Caron: 100 percent. And one of the things we want to make sure our students have the skills to do isn't only formal presentations and writing emails. It's how you show up at a meeting. And we all know meetings are three-quarters of our calendar in a given week. And so there's this ability to read the room, to know what is my role in this certain setting. Am I a note taker and a junior person? Am I expected to come with research and pose a question? And so all of these are ways that we're also talking about the human cues of communication that have to do with being able to give and receive feedback, know your role, be listening. One key skill we try to train students for it's a little difficult: flexibility and adaptability. Conditions on the ground are changing daily, it feels like. Sometimes you just have the roller coaster, and it's just going. And so a fixed thinker, someone too decided, right? Because the preparation can never make you fixed in your point of view. It should make you prepared to then entertain a lot of ideas. And so this idea of communication skills beyond reading, beyond writing and speaking, are really so nuanced around reading a room, cultivating situational awareness, because you may be pulled into doing a communication task as a result of a role that you weren't expecting. So I can talk about forever, some of the things we're doing. We try to have a lot of simulations that where students are playing roles, and then we kind of throw something in the works that they weren't expectin,g and they have to flex and adapt and reach out to a person and change what they might have recommended. All of that is key because that's what they're going to be doing in the work world. 

Scott: When it comes to that flexibility, it goes back to what we talked about earlier, this idea of preparation. Have you done your homework? Have you done your research? Whether it's a meeting or presentation, you need to be prepared enough. Not so much that you're going to do it verbatim and memorize things because that's a recipe for disaster, but be prepared enough that you can pivot at any point. If you get a question out of left field or the senior leader says, ‘Okay, that's great. Let's park that. I'm going to focus in on this.’ You can't say, ‘Okay, well, I'll get to that in 15 slides in my presentation.’ You have to be able to adapt and to flex to that. And you also, as a leader, we talk about creating these environments for feedback. And I'm sure all of us have been in a meeting like this. There's 30 seconds left. The leader's gathering their stuff, saying, ‘All right, any questions?’ And they're just walking away. They don't want questions. They don't want feedback. So, making sure that you're modeling good skills to actually get the results that you're looking for. 

Caron: 100 percent. Couldn't agree more. 

Scott: Caron, as we are kind of wrapping up a little bit here, you've touched a little bit on, you talked a little bit about your parents a bit ago, just kind of their life and their role. But I'm just kind of curious, who was somebody that has had a big impact on you from, say, you kind of molding your communication skills, your communication style? Maybe you've taken something from them and made it your own. 

Caron: A person that pops into my mind is a longtime educator, worked for a long time in the Northern Virginia Community College system here. And Joey Horovitz and I were paired as communications consultants to the FDIC, talking to bank examiners about writing reports of examinations of banks, whether banks were involved in good practices or failing practices, so they could correct those in ways that people could understand. What a concept, right? But these bank examiners, these very, very skilled financial people, were so in their own heads about things like adversely classified ratios and things. But they talked to boards of directors of local banks, and sometimes there was just a big disconnect. And so we went in, and we wanted to talk to them about understanding their audience and turning their findings into actionable ideas, because people truly understood what they were saying. And anyway, my partner in that work was Joey, longtime educator from Tennessee, which he always pronounced Tennessee. And he was such a storyteller and so humble, and he immediately created rapport with this group of very skilled, very technically minded people by saying, ‘Nobody better fight me. Tennessee has the best barbecue anywhere.’ And he was a master of the Socratic method. So somebody would raise their hand bravely, he'd pose a question. And he would stay with that person. And he would ask a follow-up question. And he would invite them to have a process of applying and working through what they were learning in that moment with him as chief protagonist and cheerleader. And it was just all done with so much warmth and cheerfulness and wit that I thought, I just want to be Joey Horvitz in the classroom. I just want to be humble and self-effacing and create an opening for students to show me the process of their learning, even in front of others, because there's so much trust and comfort in the room. So huge shout-out to Joey. 

Scott: No, I love that. That's so cool to hear. Caron, as we are wrapping up here, what piece of closing advice would you have to, for folks listening to this, just really around the importance of the skills that we talked about today and the impact that it can have, not only on their work life, but really their life in general? 

Caron: Yeah. I would say start now. Start in everything you do. We have a really robust co-curricular program at American University. And we embrace students to practice their leadership skills as the member of a sports team. Practice their executive and organizational skills and teamwork, and collaboration skills as a member of a club. Do a service project. Go out and meet people in Washington, D.C. We do a project with youth that are working towards their GED, mostly Latino and Black students in Washington, DC and our peer consultants do that for free. We treat them to lunch, but they're not on the pay. They're not getting paid for their work. Developing empathy, starting now. In every situation you are in, you can learn to be a better listener, better prepared, more empathetic, cultivate diverse perspectives to an issue. So don't wait until you're hired or you figure out that for your senior dissertation and presentation, you've got to really have these skills. Start where you are. Ask people for feedback. And that's critical, then to listen to the feedback and see what you're comfortable with. I went to grad school in London with a former JPMorgan banker, an Irishman. And he said, and this was 25 years ago, we all have to think of ourselves as Ron Martinez, LLC. What is my brand? What do I want to be known for? And being somebody who wants to connect and listen and speak well and solve problems is never going to be something that isn't completely in demand. Now or in the future.

Scott: I wholeheartedly agree. These are skills that are not going away, regardless of how much technology there is out there. Being able to connect, whether it is connect to a system or connect to another human being, are always going to be important. I wrote down, start now. That is fantastic advice. It can feel scary. It can feel overwhelming. But I assure you, little steps along the way. It's not going to happen overnight. But as you mentioned, practice, get some feedback. Take it. Practice. Get some feedback. Take it. Iterate. Learn. Find opportunities, whether it's just online courses, having a coach, going onto YouTube, reading articles, whatever it is, having a mentor. You practice these skills just like anything else. You will get better. 

Caron: 100 percent. Yeah. 

Scott: Caron, thank you so much for joining me. I feel like we could have talked all afternoon about this. 

Caron: We could. 

Scott: But I really do appreciate it. If folks want to connect with you, learn more about your work, learn more about American University, what's the best way to do that?

Caron: So the best way to do that is to reach out to me at ProComms. That's P-R-O-C-O-M-M-S. ProComms at American.edu. That's my work general mailbox for all things professional. Also, find me on LinkedIn. I'm Caron Garcia Martinez on LinkedIn. And I'm happy to connect. Loving these conversations. I want to know how you're using AI, not as a shortcut or substitute for your own human creativity intelligence, but how is it helping you in that process? Because that's what we're all about. At Kogod, and honestly, for life and career, that's, I think, where we all have to get. 

Scott: Fantastic. And I'll be sure to put links to the email as well as to the LinkedIn in the show notes for those listening who want to reach out and connect. I'll be able to find that in the show notes. Once again, thank you so much. I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Caron: It's been my pleasure, Scott. Keep doing what you're doing. It's so important. We're on a mission together. Yes. Thank you. Bye-bye. 

Scott: Special thanks again to my guest, Caron Martinez, for joining us and sharing her insights on curiosity as a communication skill. The importance of disciplined preparation and the powerful role of feedback and emotional intelligence. As we wrap up, remember that communication mastery is not innate. It's earned through intentional practice, pause and purposeful listening. Subscribe to Communicast so you can continue benefiting from future episodes with compelling guests like Caron. If you found value in today's conversation, I'd be grateful if you leave a rating or review. It helps us grow and reach listeners like you. Thanks for tuning in and have a great day.