Wilser: So take us back there. What did that look like? How did you think about injecting AI into the curriculum, about embracing it? What did that look like? What were kind of your goals when you first started?

Virtu: Okay, so great question. So I'm not an academic. I'm new to academia. I'm learning. I came out of the business world. So I had this idea and I went to the senior associate dean at our school, the Kogod School of Business, Parthiban David, and I said, we need to do something. How do we do it? And he, of course, being academic, said, let's form a committee. And I immediately rolled my eyes and said, academic committees—I have this vision of three years and a 400-page report that nobody can read. He gave the committee six weeks and said, come back and give us actionable recommendations. And he went to a fellow named Erran Carmel, who's a longstanding, very distinguished professor and a futurist, and Professor Carmel pulled together a group of six or eight faculty, and they came back with a plan. And the plan said, let’s incorporate AI in the core courses throughout every department—so marketing, finance, accounting, management, etc. Let’s have first-years take it, and then let’s give students the option to go deeper with electives. And they said, let’s have twenty classes incorporate AI at some level. And then they even came up with a framework that said we’ll have several types of classes—we’ll have what we’re calling “sage” classes, where the whole class is really AI, and then let’s have something called “artisan” classes, where you have a touch of AI. So they presented it to me, and I said, done. Let’s run. And we announced about thirty days later. Incredible. So I’m making this up on the fly, but it seems like there are two different buckets of AI in education. One is the actual teaching of AI—like this is how large language models work, these are the foundational principles of AI. The other bucket is using AI in the service of other education—like, hey, thanks to AI, students can better understand financial theory, and here’s how optimal portfolio management works, and we’ll use AI and we’ll use some kind of chatbot to create some Socratic dialogue. 

Wilser: So if I heard you right, Dave, it sounds like the proposal from that committee was both of those buckets—of teaching AI and also using AI to facilitate teaching other subjects. Am I getting that right?

Marchick: Correct. And I'll start it, then Angela can add. So we have different types of students. We have some folks like me who fear tech—not a big user of tech. But if you're 22 and you're entering the workforce in the next couple of years, you need to know how to use AI in whatever you do: marketing, management, accounting, etc. Then you have some people like Angela who are real tech people—they program, they will create tech products, they will manage tech products. And we will offer programming classes, technology classes, much deeper opportunities in ways that I would probably fail the class, but people like Angela would be really excited. So let me see if Angela wants to expand upon or fix anything I said.

Virtu: So no matter if you're in finance, if you're in HR, you're all going to be impacted. You have to use it, you have to learn how to use it, you have to talk the talk and walk the walk a little bit. And so as we integrate it into the curriculum, yes, there will be some of it that is going to be: what is an LLM, how do you build a predictive model, how do we code in Python or R? But for all of the rest, which are more of our artisan flavors, it's those use cases, those business cases, the ethicality of it—what does it look like in the BAE program? So, you know, is it okay if we have AI voice-clone Drake, right? So we're kind of encompassing both forms of the perspectives in the curriculum. It's not just that technical, technical piece.

Wilser: Thank you, super helpful. And just to get my bearings, what’s the timing on this? I know you guys worked very fast, especially in academia. But when did you start this initiative? And then when will it actually be implemented in curriculums—or has it already? Are there actually classes right now being taught that have AI embedded in them?

Marchick: So we had conversations in November and December after the CEO spoke at our school. The committee met for the first time on January 17th, presented the recommendations in early March, and we announced on March 26. We will have twenty classes in our curriculum for the next academic year that begins in August of 2024. At the same time, even when I didn’t know about this, some of our faculty members were already using AI. For example, we have a fantastic professor who’s an expert in negotiations. She was using AI already this year for her students. So the students would need to practice negotiations with an AI tool—make this argument, what are the weaknesses in your argument? She gave an assignment that said, “Alright, ask your boss for some additional responsibility and higher pay. How do you make that argument? How does your boss respond?” Then have AI analyze the shortcomings in your argument. “Alright, let’s make it more complicated. Now make your boss a total jerk, hostile—like we’ve all had terrible bosses. So you need to learn how to deal with a terrible boss, and you can give the AI tool a terrible personality so that you can learn how to negotiate with a jerk.” We have a finance professor who’s been using AI tools to teach finance students how to underwrite and evaluate stocks. So some of our faculty, and then obviously in Angela’s department, which is our technology department, they were using it already. So some faculty are early adopters and were doing it even without a push, and others, we asked for faculty to raise their hands so they could change their courses for next year. 

Wilser: Love those examples, Angela, what are some more examples of how AI is being baked into the curriculum across a range of subjects next semester?

Virtu: So some other examples: In my ITEC 200 class, we do a really big project called the E-Tech project, where students pick an emerging technology, identify a company that could potentially use it, and then do a whole pitch to secure investment for that company. Year after year, semester after semester, I get a lot of the same topics because this is an intro class, and a lot of students just don’t know tech. It comes at the very beginning of the semester. This past spring, I thought, let’s use AI to help give us some examples. What’s a technology or company that we might be interested in, and what kind of tech might disrupt that space in the next five, 10, or 15 years? The breadth of topics I got this spring was much larger compared to past semesters, because students were picking technologies they didn’t even know existed or exploring creative endeavors that weren’t necessarily tied to a specific chapter in the textbook they had read so far. Going forward, I know we’re including AI in all our more technical courses as a way to help students write their code, whether it’s in Python or R. We no longer have to worry about the syntax monster yelling at you because you put a comma in the wrong spot. This way, we can focus more on building products and understanding what it means, instead of stressing about whether your semicolon is in the right spot. I know, Dave, correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re building out something for the Business and Entertainment (BAE) program in particular.

Marchick: So we have a leading program that’s ranked on the Billboard top business and entertainment school list. Students who want to go into the music, recording, or television industries go to places like Paramount and work as agents. You recall the writer’s strike, and AI was at the core of that.

Marchick: You could even say, “Write me a Seinfeld episode.” Our business entertainment faculty are developing a class on Taylor Swift and AI, looking into name, image, and likeness. It’s a whole new class that, three years ago, didn’t even exist. They’re working over the summer to develop this new class, which they’re going to roll out for our students next year.

Wilser: Incredible. So what has been the feedback and reaction from faculty for this? As you mentioned, historically, academia moves slowly. You mentioned there were some in faculty who were very AI progressive already and already injecting AI into their classes. But I'm guessing that wasn't everyone. And maybe there are professors who have little to no interest in using AI and how they teach. How have you dealt with that? And more generally, how have you navigated the relationship with faculty while kind of working to push this through? 

Marchick: You want to start, Angela?

Virtu: So it's a challenge, right? We have faculty on every realm of the spectrum in terms of our AI adoption and some like it, some don't like it. Some are weary, some are never going to change them or have already been doing it for the past year year plus. One of the things that we've put in place in my role is to train all of our faculty. So we have in April done two main events. One was we brought people from industry into one of our classrooms, we had all of our faculty, all of our staff there. And those industry experts were really just there to talk about how AI has been being leveraged in their domains and their industry. And it wasn't there to teach our faculty of we have to use AI, but it's really just there to get the creative juices flowing and start embracing the idea of like, industry has already adopted it. Here's how they're using it. Here's how we can maybe start thinking about things inside our classrooms to better prepare our students for their career outcomes when they leave Kogod at the end of their tenure.

The second event, we had one of our professors, Derrick Cogburn, come in, and he did a good job talking about prompt engineering, how we all can be better at thinking about writing these prompts, creating these personas and really putting ourselves in the shoes of the students who might not have any context or might not know how this stuff works.

And then what we've started instituting is a monthly, very light coffee chat, which is just a straight convening space where all of our faculty can kind of come on zoom, talk about what they're worried about what's working what's not working what they're really confused about; "Oh, hey, we found this cool resource," or "Hey, there's this new tool," right? AI is ever changing and even the summer, you know, there's rumors of GPT5 coming out. There's rumors of all these things are going to disrupt the space even further. And so that is a way where we can kind of just gather as a community and just start working through some of those big hard rocks: what's the ethics of this? What's our policy on that? And just have a space to talk honestly. And I think that's been like building the bridge and building the connectivity and starting to get maybe some of our more adverse faculty versus the right word...Dave, help me out here. I'm not the words person, I do the numbers.

Marchick: Reluctant?

Virtu: Maybe some more reluctant faculty, you know, they're getting that space they're getting the time they can work through it. I think one thing that's challenging in academia is you know, we have incredible faculty who are great researchers, they are at the top in their field. And AI might not be that for them. And so it's a new feeling. It's a little bit of, "Oh, this is the unknown. I don't know how many this works." And they kind of have to start at zero. And that's just, I mean, that's not fun for me when I was a student. It's not going to be fun for them now. And it's just that growing pains of, you know, getting those building blocks up to be more comfortable with it.

Marchick: You know, I actually asked Angela to start because I wanted to see what she said, because we didn't. It's been overall very positive in my view. So I'll give you a few examples. Number one, I don't think an academic committee has ever done anything in six weeks. Sometimes you can't even form an academic committee in six weeks or pick the members. Number two, we had twenty faculty out of our ninety raise their hands and say, "I will create a new course" or "I'll modify my course to incorporate AI." Number three, and we appointed Angela as the faculty instructional fellow. She's the youngest coolest hippest faculty member at Kogod and she came from industry. So we and she's put together these great training programs. And the first one, the room was full standing room only. And we had over 100 people online watching. So I thought that I think the reaction overall has been great.

I'll give you one other example. This is new, as Angela said. So we have a faculty member named Casey Evans. She is an accountant. She worked at Arthur Andersen. Then she worked at another company called FSI. She's a forensic accountant. She teaches forensic accounting at Kogod at our school. She raised her hand and said, "I'll incorporate AI into forensic accounting." So for those of your listeners who don't know what forensic accounting is, it's basically think about the Madoff trial or the Sam Bankman-Fried trial. When you're going back through all the financial transactions and unwinding what happened? Who did what to whom? How do we recover this money? How do we find out the fraud? So in forensic accounting, you're literally looking for the needle in the haystack. Think about how powerful AI can be instead of having accountants look page by page for one little transaction, load it up in an AI tool, have AI look for it and summarize it. So Casey Evans, Professor Evans, she's going back to school this summer to take a course offered by the forensic accounting industry association on how forensic accounting leaders are using AI in their trade. So she's an expert in forensic accounting. She's not an expert in AI, but she will become an expert this summer. And so I think that's pretty cool that a faculty member is becoming a student again. And she's excited about it. 

Wilser: That's very cool. And the more you share, for example, the more I'm starting to kind of get a sense of how this could look and feel. I love to get unpacked a little more though, to kind of get a richer sense of what kind of AI in the curriculum means. And you've given some great examples. But it sounds like we're talking about having professors share with students ways that they can use AI to better understand concepts or to even conduct work, like in the case of forensic accounting you just gave. But also it sounds like there's the question of a different almost format of education, right? Of how AI can help teach. Can you talk a bit about that part of it? Like, are you exploring things like chatbots and ways that students can interact with AI to kind of have an intellectual discourse? And Dave, you mentioned a great example of a negotiation like almost a role playing of saying, OK, AI, you be a bad boss and I'm going to ask for a raise and we'll see what happens. Are you doing things like that for going to first principles to understand concepts, things like that? And is that a one-off thing certain classes here and there experimenting with? Or is it a goal to have in most of your classes have some kind of AI-fueled platform to help the actual delivery of education?

Marchick: The answer, I think, to your question is yes, we will get there over time. Let me give you an example. When the calculator came out, I'm sure there were many professors that said, hey, you should use a ledger. This calculator, you're going to you're screwing up thousands of years of learning of how to use an abacus or a ledger. Then when Excel came out, I'm sure many professors said, don't use Excel, use a calculator.

Marchick: But let me see if Angela agrees or disagrees. 

Virtu: No, I totally agree. I remember last fall, Dave, I was in one of the meetings. I remember who was all there. But one of the coolest things that I thought of at that time was I get emails from students at all hours of the night. And let's be honest, I'm a total grandma. I'm in bed by like nine o'clock. I can't stay up late anymore as I used to. And I'll get emails from my students, like two or three in the morning. And then I'll address them in the morning. But how cool would it be if we could just have a little GPT that we upload our syllabus in. And then instead of needing to come to me or to a TA at two o'clock in the morning, it would just give them their answer, like in real time. So I've kind of been playing with that idea, trying to see if it would be reliable enough for work. So I think we're on the road to getting there. But that's definitely a little bit of a bigger endeavor than just let's get it into the curriculum, let's do what we can do right now. And then as this all evolves over time, we can do cooler and better things. 

Marchick: And then our career office is using AI to help students prepare resumes to do research, to practice interviews, to prepare for the job market, to match skills. I went to lunch with this very senior executive at a top 100 company today. And he said they're using AI in their HR function. So that let's say that someone applies to be a sales rep. And that person actually doesn't seem that attractive to be a sales rep, but they'd be good in their operations department. They're using AI to identify the skill sets and send that resume over to someone else. So companies are always starved for talent and individuals are always starved for jobs. And they're using AI to do a better match and think about the efficiency gains and savings they can create from that type of technology. 

Wilser: Absolutely. Angela, you used a word a moment ago that felt very apt and that's evolves. This space in evolving, the space is moving and evolving so fast. So how do you handle that challenge? Right? I mean, I'm going to at the most cartoonish extreme and obviously no one would do this. But imagine if you created new textbooks for next fall students that's like talking about here's how to use ChatGPT. Obviously, that will be woefully out of date very soon and will be wasting paper and money and all that stuff. Right? So how are you thinking about the fluidity of change and how to inject AI in a curriculum knowing that it two months from now could be very different? 

Virtu: So in regards of AI moving at an incredibly fast pace, even if we're going fast, how do we catch up? So I think the first thing is that the way we're ingraining it into our curriculum isn't like set brand new classes. This has to be the only topic that has to be the only concept. It's ingrained through activities, it's ingrained through case studies, it's ingrained through use cases. And so I think as the industry progresses, as the technology progresses, it's a little bit of like a plug and play where we can bring in a newer example. We can bring in a newer assignment. We can use a slightly different tool or the GPT5 version instead of the 4 version or whatever it may be. So I do think the underlying themes of the core competencies that we want the students to get of like what does a finance major need to know? What does an HR or a management or an analytic student need to know? Like that's not really changing. What's changing is just those use cases, the exact tooling, the direction we might be taking with it. And you know, it's something we're constantly looking at. We can evolve it over time again. So I don't know, Dave, if you have anything else to add on to that. 

Marchick: I would say the reason we appointed Professor Virtu as the AI instructional fellow in charge of training our faculty is because she's the youngest, hippest, coolest faculty member and she'll be at the cutting edge of AI of the changes much more than someone like I would. So as AI changes as the use case evolved as new technology develops, think about how fast this change in the last year, she will be able to communicate and coordinate with our faculty so that our faculty can remain as current as possible. Now, we're not chasing the latest fad. But we want to give our students the tools to be more competitive in the marketplace, which also will be changing as well. Ultimately, you know, an educational institution like American University is delivering two products where we are providing research and knowledge to improve the world. And then we're training students and providing educational training for them so they can live interesting, full, productive lives. And hopefully this initiative is very, very student focused. There are lots of universities around the world that are doing a lot in AI that's very research focused. Let's have an institute. Let's partner with industry on research and we do that. But this is a student focused initiative. This is all about helping our students be better prepared for whatever they want to do next.

Wilser: Speaking of students, I think the obvious question that everyone has when they hear AI in education is cheating and, "oh my goodness, no student will ever do their own homework now when you can have ChatGPT do it in 1.7 seconds." So how are you guys thinking about the challenge of AI and cheating and how are you addressing that?

Virtu: So I think the real question is what are we trying to evaluate from the students and are we actually doing that in the best way? I think what ChatGPT and, you know, generative AI as a whole has kind of highlighted is the traditional, alright, let’s just take all of the information from a textbook, boil it up and regurgitate it in multiple choice questions. A little bit out of the question, right? Does that actually prove the competencies that we want to evaluate from the students? So I think one part of it is just us as instructors getting maybe a little bit more creative in how we can actually evaluate, and if we can push the rigor away from something that ChatGPT can do by default and maybe add that layer of critical thinking, add an extra layer of difficulty to the assessment. So even if they're using AI on an assessment, it's not just regurgitating the writing of AI, but perhaps, you know, the application and their presentation. 

Wilser: Have you explored and had conversations of things like, geez, should we, and I'm just making it up because I've heard floated out there, things like, OK, no more having students write papers on computers anymore. We're going to go back to the old ways and have, like, blue book exams. Remember those little blue packets that you had to write by pen or pencil in class? Or we're going to use oral exams. Are you thinking about different types of measuring in ways that AI and computers can't be used at all? Or is that like, okay that's overboard? There are solutions without being that kind of draconian. 

Virtu: And so I'm like, have at it. Use AI, write your code. It's cool. I don't even need you to write code on the exam because I remember when I was in school and I was taking a programming class. I like you, Jeff, had the big blue books and had a hand write my code. And then, you know, the comma was in the wrong spot. So you lost a thousand points and it was just not it's not the student experience that I enjoyed. And I know it's not the student experience that our Kogod kids would enjoy as well.

Wilser: Dave, what has been the biggest challenge so far in implementing this new framework?

Marchick: I think the biggest challenge has been imagining that an academic institution can move this fast. That when I kind of laid out the goal and objectives, I think I probably got a lot of eye rolls from faculty and staff that had been around academia for a long time. But fortunately, Parthiban David, who's my partner in everything, he's the dean of faculty, you know, he'll know he'll forget more about managing and dealing with faculty than I'll ever learn since I'm new to academia. He laid out a framework to get it done and then appointed the right people. And honestly, you know, Angela is working, you know, day by day at a more micro level than I am. But I am really pleased and impressed with the speed at which our faculty has adopted and then adapted. And then the other incredible thing is the student reaction and the parent reaction has been overwhelming. So when we announced this, we had a great front page story in the Wall Street Journal featuring us. And the next few days I'd walk on the quad and students would stop me and say, I'm so excited about what we're doing with AI. And then we had a new student day where students that are admitted to our school and other schools, you know, that students in our school, you know, they apply to us and NYU and similar schools. The students and parents, they were so excited about this that this is pretty much all they talked about when they were on campus. So I'm actually pleasantly surprised that we didn't have more challenges. But I don't know, Angela is closer to the day to day. So she may be seeing things that I'm not seeing. 

Wilser: No matter how successful it is, no project flies through blue skies and cotton candy with zero issues. Right. So what were some of the obstacles you had to overcome, Angela? 

Virtu: Look, this technology is just so new. And so yes, we're in academia. Yes, we're the experts. Yes, we're going first. But I don't think anyone has the answer. So there's no magic book that's like, this is exactly what we should be doing. And so I think a lot of this is so far in our trial and error process. We've been on the successful side of the book. This is a really, really new endeavor. This is a really new initiative. And so I'm sure we're going to have some roadblocks going through, but I think it just comes back to as long as we can iterate and iterate quickly and learn from the things that don't work and we can pivot, which we've seen us be able to do in the past. I think we'll be OK. But right now, like, we don't know no one knows, right? And so we'll find out this fall once we launch all the new curriculum and see how everything goes. But I know we can adapt to anything.

Wilser: As a sequel after the fall, I'd love to hear how it's going.

Marchick: Hopefully we'll still be in our jobs and we're not fired if it fails.

Wilser: As we wind down here, I know there are educators and professors as listeners of this podcast. What advice would you each give others in academia out there who are thinking about these issues, who are grappling with, geez, how do I how do I handle the issue of AI? Angela, I'll start with you. What advice would you give to professors or other folks in academia?

Virtu: So I think from me being technical is just try. Find one piece of technology. Maybe it's ChatGPT. Maybe it's Copilot. Maybe it's Perplexity, right? It can be whatever it is and just spend five minutes poking around, trying different prompts or if there's something that you do that's very routine or very automated or there's a problem that you have personally. When we brought back some alums, one of the anecdotes that our alum talked about as the aha moment for them with AI was they just moved into a new house. They got a whole bunch of house plants and they don't have a green thumb. And so they created a little AI agent then uploaded all of the information for their associated plants. And now when Lucy, the plant that they named, has a brown leaf, they can take a picture, upload it into their AI agent and it'll be like, okay, you've over-watered her or you under-watered her, and here's exactly what you should be doing. So I think if there's something you're passionate about, a topic, something you're struggling with yourself that you know the internet might have resources for, just start trying it out and see what works.

Wilser: I love that example as such a great one. I'm stealing that and I've plant myself so I might steal that literally. Dave, how about you? What advice would you give to others in the space?

Marchick: I think the key thing that I've tried to do is listen to people that are smarter than me in the private sector and borrow their expertise. The private sector is so far ahead of academia, government, nonprofits. They're moving with speed. And so I've learned a lot from asking a lot of dumb questions to a lot of people that are experts. And then we've brought them in to train our faculty. So again, Angela designed this whole faculty training but the first event we had, we had a CEO. We had the head of marketing for one of the most famous content providers in the country. And then we had a 26-year-old former student who is using AI every day. And they shared their expertise with our faculty and our faculty were like, I get it. I know how to teach this to our students and now I need to figure out how to incorporate this into my class. So I think one of the great techniques in being a good leader is to learn and rely on people that know a lot more than you do. And that's what I've done here and they've led the way. And I've just synthesized the information and created a framework to get stuff done.

Wilser: Love it. Last question, something that I ask all of my guests. How do each of you use AI in your own life whether for work or for fun? Angela, we'll start with you.

Virtu: So for fun, so I cook a little bit. I dabble in the kitchen every now and then but when it comes to like Thursday, my inventory in my fridge gets a little wonky where I have random leftover ingredients like a potato or like one piece of chicken. And so instead of trying to figure out on Google like what should I make for dinner tonight with all these random ingredients that I have laying around in my kitchen, I'll like throw it into the AI and have it pull and compile the recipes that are like the most compatible and like easy because I don't want to spend like an hour in the kitchen. So that's been like the coolest probably one that I've done so far.

Wilser: Amazing. And for work, I guess you are, you know, creating entire framework for AI education. So there's that. But is there, all kidding aside, is there anything like have you found the kind of like favorite hacks of like, okay when responding to emails, I do this or I use ChatGPT to do X in creating documents or what have you?

Virtu: I have ChatGPT, as long as it's not like proprietary information, I have it like proofread all of my like emails and like content that I go out either to students or to other faculty. Cause I again, words are not my strong suit. And so being able to just upload it in and be like, Hey, can you let me know what the weak point is in this? Is the message clear? What do you think the message of this email is? Is the tone correct? Right? That's been super helpful on like the professional front because as Dave knows, I'm a little bit blunt. I come from industry. I don't have the academia speak as well as some of my colleagues do. So that's definitely been helpful.

Wilser: Amazing. And Dave, how about you? Ways you are using AI on your life?

Marchick: So this summer I am doing a bike ride across the United States. It's an eight person relay race called the Race Across America. And so I've been using AI to help me plan the race to help me think about intervals. So when we're going through the desert and it's 120 degrees or when we're going over the Rocky Mountains, we'll do shifts of say 20 or 30 minutes, when we're on a flat road and we have wind at our back we'll do shifts of two or three hours. And so I've been using AI to help anticipate the hardest parts of the race and the easiest parts of the race, and then also help plan the sequencing and when we'll sleep throughout the race. So it's been an incredible tool. It's gathering up everything that anybody has ever written or uploaded on YouTube or anything that anybody's ever produced on these cross country relay races and I'm using it to help me think about planning.

Wilser: These are all great vivid concrete examples. I love all this stuff. Amazing. Well guys, thank you so much. I really enjoy it. I'm super excited and curious about what you have cooked up at the university, I’ll be following it closely. I mean, frankly, I'm not gonna pretend to be objective. I am rooting for you guys. I'm rooting for this to work. I think it's great that you're having this forward thinking embracing AI approach. I think we can all, whatever field people are in, can learn from that kind of mentality and mindset. And that's kind of why I launched the podcast myself. I'm like, as a writer, I'm like, all right, I can be like, oh shit, I'll be out of a job in six months or I can lean into this and explore it and understand it better. And so I've tried to get mindset personally and I think virtually anyone and virtually any industry profession can take a dose of that spirit you guys have. So thanks so much again and best of luck to you both.

Marchick: Thanks for having us, Jeff. It was really great fun to be with you.

Virtu: Thanks, Jeff.

Wilser: Well, there you have it. Thanks again to my guests, American University's Co-Guarded School of Business, Dean David Marchick and Professor Angela Virtu. I very much enjoyed this conversation as I said, and I am not just saying this. I am super intrigued by this grand experiment. I do think that they are on the right track. If I had to bet or make predictions, I would guess that other universities follow suit. That feels inevitable that to some extent AI will need to be taught in a curriculum, needed to be incorporated. Obviously kind of nuanced—there is a question of how—and of course, Kogod is grappling with all of that. I'm sure they will iterate. I'm sure they will course correct and all that good stuff but like kudos to them for going for it. I think it's very cool. Thank you again. If you enjoyed the podcast, please consider subscribing, rating it five stars, forwarding to a friend, all that good stuff. Thanks again and we'll see you next time. Take care.