Jonathan Taylor: Alright, welcome back to another episode, our final episode of 2025 of Persuasion by the Pint. I'm Jonathan Taylor along with:

Sean McCool: Sean McCool and Jonathan, today we have a special guest on. We are heading into some, you know, prime sports seasons here, right? 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: With the college football playoffs or we're thick in NBA. If you watch that stuff.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Sean McCool:  I don't, but you know, there's— but yeah, we're gonna be talking about sports betting apps and how they hook users by design and what else is going on there. Why are these— why is this growing so fast? Why is it so sticky? All those kinds of things. And we're going to be talking with somebody with some inside knowledge on this stuff. So, should be a very interesting show. You've got the bio, which will reveal a lot about just how much, how good this information is going to be. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. We have another professor. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: We have Professor Matthew.

Sean McCool: Bakowicz.

Jonathan Taylor: Bakowicz. I've already forgotten. Professor Matthew Bakowicz. He is the Program Director of Sports Business Management at American University's Kogod School of Business as a guest. Prior to academia, he previously managed sports book operations for Draft Kings at Foxwoods overseeing more than $400 million in wagers, risk management and compliance. He also led analytics teams and professional sports. And again, as Sean mentioned, we're talking about the popularity, the rise in popularity. 

I do use Draft Kings. I think there's some things behind that, that is incredibly easy to use. It's incredibly intuitive. It's sticky. And it's hard to get out of. And they've designed it that way. So yeah. So we're going to keep you coming back.

Sean McCool: Yeah. We'll see if we can figure out what those things are.

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Sean McCool: And maybe we can protect ourselves against it. So, but yeah, let's bring him in. Let's bring on Matt. Matt. Bakowicz. 

Jonathan Taylor: Bakowicz. Yes. Welcome to the show. Professor Bakowicz. 

Matt Bakowicz: Well, first and foremost, I'll thank you guys. It's, it's still, it's Bakowicz. 

Jonathan Taylor: Bakowicz.

Matt Bakowicz: You guys were close though. Listen, it's the same mistake that my students make at the beginning of the semester. Our department head, Mark Clark jokingly says the bonus question on all exams is how to pronounce my last name. So, no harm, no foul. 

Jonathan Taylor: Bakowicz. Yes.

Sean McCool: The oral exam, right. That's the make or break. So, yeah. So I want to —Matt, tell us kind of one, don't give away too much.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool:  But give us, like, one reason people might want to stick around and hear about your perspective on this topic today. 

Matt Bakowicz: Well, I think, we'll go down the profit side. If you listen to some of the things that I'll talk about today, you might not see that negative balance in your account by the end of 2025, moving into 2026. And with all the college bowl games, NBA on Christmas Day and a pretty big NFL weekend coming up, I'd like to see some green in that account versus some 0.00’s where another deposit is going to be necessary. So, happy to help and see if we can keep us in the positive. 

Sean McCool: Show me the money, Jerry. 

Jonathan Taylor: That’s right. 

Sean McCool: Show me the money. 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. Yes. 

Jonathan Taylor: Help that credit card bill after Christmas, right? You can, you know, kind of take care of some of those expenses, right?

Matt Bakowicz: That's the attack plan. So we'll talk about a few things and also really some trip things to watch out for, for when, maybe you're playing a little too much. And when the world of the sports betting, you know, environment is trying to hook you in and kind of keep you there, how to respectfully take a break, how to get back in and how to enjoy it from an entertainment perspective; not so much as a money-making device. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: Because at the end of the day, this should be fun and exciting. It shouldn't be something that you're trying to base your livelihood off of. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You're in trouble if that's the case, but, uh, for real. 

Sean McCool: Well, let's talk about our beverages today. This is our little juvenile beer talk portion of the show. So let's talk about beer. Matt, we always let our guests go first. What are you having today? 

Matt Bakowicz: Today I'm having the Yingling Traditional Lager. 

Sean McCool: Nice. 

Matt Bakowicz: This beer holds a very special place in my heart as many individuals probably of your show and of the world know it's from Pottsville, Pennsylvania, America's oldest brewery, and it's actually the hometown area of my mom and dad. They grew up in the coal region of Pennsylvania. They knew Dick Yingling personally. 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh wow! 

Matt Bakowicz: They knew the family. We– my entire extended family, both my mom's side, my dad's side, we're very familiar with Yingling Brewery. So, every time I hear about that beer, it always gives me a nice reminder of my childhood. I did grow up in Connecticut, but we spent many summers and Christmases and Easters down in my parents' hometown in Shemokin, Pennsylvania, right by Pottsville, PA. So, always excited to reference Yingling. It's kind of the family beer, if you will. And we've had a– we've had a cool connection. So, that'll be my beverage of choice for the show today.

Jonathan Taylor: Have you had the–  have you–. Do you ever get their Hershey Yingling around the holidays? Don't they have a Hershey? 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes– my— 

Jonathan Tayor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: My Aunt Diane, who will be listening to this, well, she's always bringing me a six pack of that. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: It is fantastic. The Hershey port. Very, very good. We spent many years actually going to Hershey park around Christmas time. My brother and I, growing up, we would do that and now, I get a nice little, little taste of that. So yes, it's very good. The Yingling flight is good. There's a fun fact about their limestone water that comes out of Pottsville that goes through the limestone mountains. And of course, water, key ingredient in beer, it's what gives it that signature taste. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, I got to tour the coal mines up there with my pap and it's been— it's been pretty cool to reference that. So, that beer holds a special place in my heart, and reminds me of home. 

Jonathan Taylor: Awesome. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: That limestone water. Makes a good bourbon, too, right? I mean—

Matt Bakowicz: I'm not a bourbon guy, but I'm sure it does.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: I mean, anytime you're running water through limestone, it’s getting filtered and picking up some minerals and all that good stuff. So yeah, it's always good stuff. I'm a big fan of the black and tan. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Sean McCool: Yingling. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, I like that, too. 

Sean McCool: That's my — if I had to pick a Yingling, that's, that's the one I would go with. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. 

Sean McCool: Jonathan, what are you having up in your part of the woods? 

Jonathan Taylor: All right. Today I have a, let's see, this is called a Duchess. A Duchess chocolate cherry.

Sean McCool: Okay. 

Jonathan Taylor: I think I have, yeah, this is a Duchess chocolate cherry. It is 6.8% ABV from Verhey, I guess, brewery. It is the traditional Duchess de bourgone, a blend of one and two year old sour

ales aged in oak cast with 20 kilos of whole sour cherries from the Lindbergh region of Belgium.

Sean McCool: Goodness. 

Jonathan Taylor: So, a little chocolate and cherry going there. 

Sean McCool: A little cherry cordial going on. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Sean McCool: All right. Well, I've got on my end—  I'm finishing out a six pack of one I had a couple of weeks ago. So, I'm not going to go in too much detail, but it is from Tup's Brewing. It is the ugly sweater. 

Jonathan Taylor: The ugly sweater. 

Sean McCool: What is this? An amber ale.

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Sean McCool: With holiday spices. And I remember it being quite good. So, I don't remember my score, but, yeah.

Jonathan Taylor: Four- three. 

Sean McCool: Just finish up the holiday beers and then we'll break into the new year beer after that. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. Definitely. 

Sean McCool: All right. Well, gentlemen, let's cheers it up, to a good show and to not losing too much money. 

Matt Bakowicz: Yeah, that sounds great. 

Sean McCool: Cheers.

Jonathan Taylor: Too late for me. 

Sean McCool: All right.  So Matt, we give these a score of one to five pints. Use decimals as many as you want, and what do you give the Yingling Lager there on a one to five pints? Five being the best.

Matt Bakowicz: I'm a four and a half on this one. It's a great beer. It's good— it's a good winter beer. It's not my summer beer of choice. When you made the ugly sweater comment, I was immediately thinking of, I'm also a Troggs beer fan of the Mad Elf around this time of year. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, I saw the Ugly Sweater and for about a split second I imagined the Mad Elf beer. I'm a big fan of that. So, this is my seasonal beer. I will make the switch right around, I would say April, the start of baseball season. So, great this time of year, it's getting a 4.5. In the summertime, I probably knock it down about a two to a three. It's not really a summer beer. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. A little heavy. A little heavy for that. Yeah.

Sean McCool: All right. Jonathan, what do you give the Dutchess cherry there?

Jonathan Taylor: A little tart for my liking. 

Sean McCool: Okay. 

Jonathan Taylor: So I'm going to—

Sean McCool: It is a sour ale. 

Jonathan Taylor Yeah, it is. I didn't read the fine print very well when I picked it up. So, I'm going to give this one, just because it's not my fault. I'm going to give it a 2.8. 2.8. 

Sean McCool: Okay. Yeah. Those sour ales, man, you got to either love them or not drink them because they're– 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: They got their own taste. 

Jonathan Taylor: I thought, there would be, the chocolate would kind of balance that out a little bit. 

Sean McCool: The bitterness. Yeah. Balance out the sour. Nope. No. No. I mean, with 20 kilograms of cherries, like, you know, that's, it's a lot to overcome, I guess.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: All right. I don't remember what I gave mine, but I'm going to give it a 4.3.

Jonathan Taylor: Okay. 

Sean McCool: Kind of the same thing. It's a very wintry beer, a lot of winter spice, which I actually used this when we did the turkey. I poured a can in the bottom of the turkey and that was perfect. 

Jonathan Taylor: I remember that. 

Sean McCool: So, yeah, so, good stuff. 

Jonathan Taylor: Excellent. 

Sean McCool: All right. It sounds like we've got a pretty good flight except Jonathan, he'll have to suffer through his two or three bottles over there.

Jonathan Taylor: I'll be giving the rest of this away. 

Matt Bakowicz: When you mentioned cherry, I'm a Sam Adams cherry wheat beer fan. So, I've always–

Jonathan Taylor: That’s good. 

Matt Bakowicz: I have a bit of a reference to that. So, when you mentioned the cherry thing– that's, that's been the best cherry beer I think that I've seen produced in the last two or three years.

Jonathan Taylor: And their new winter ale is outstanding. 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes. 

Jonathan Taylor:  It's a new blend this year, but I mean, it's always a new one around the winter time, but it's really good. So, but yeah, cherry sour ale, not so good. 

Matt Bakowicz: Fair enough. 

Sean McCool: A little too much on the sour there. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: So, all right, well, Matt, I'm excited. I want to go over, and maybe you know some of these off the top of your head, but– well, maybe I'll just ask you. I've got some numbers pulled up here, but I'm curious if you're— tell us about the growth in general of sports betting, you know, now that it's legal in so many places and kind of what we– how fast this is growing. Cause it's pretty, it's pretty amazing. 

Jonathan Tayor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So let's look at it from a state perspective. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: 2018 Supreme Court makes this legislative rule to allow, in short, states to regulate sports betting. Let’s fast forward to December 23rd, 2025. 39 states now have a legal form of sports betting. So, if you really think about that from a state by state, basically litigation law structure, that's very quick. That's a very rapid pace. We now have 39 out of the 50 States in the union that have a sports betting perspective. Almost every state that has physical casinos are being outpaced by online casinos and online sports betting. I lump them together because most applications are both the online casino and the sports betting application. FanDuel is a good example of this. Draft Kings is a good example of this. MGM, Caesars, you guys get the idea.

So, we're now seeing most of the revenue from every state that has a legal sports betting platform coming from an online structure. And we're seeing 39 out of 50 States now have some form of legalized sports betting. If I were to put a timeframe on this, I would say by 2028, it would be very surprising if all 50 States are not having some form of sports betting available here in the country. So, very fast growth. Fast, rapid expansion for one very key factor: marketing. It has nothing to do with the software. It has nothing to do with gambling. Gambling has been around since the wild west  years. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: And you know, the 1800s. It's the marketing platform. Draft Kings, FanDuel, Caesars, Bet MGM, HardRock spend the majority of their money, of their capital, if you will, on marketing. And that is what's driven this whole entire, we'll call it the sports betting wave throughout the country. It's marketing. It's getting the word out there and it's doing it in a sense of talking about, 

look, at the end of the day, their number one selling pitch is, if you don't legalize this in your state, people from your state are going to leave and spend their money elsewhere. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: And that's lost revenue. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So it's been fast. It's been fast. That's both good for growth from a business perspective, very nervous from a regulation perspective, because we are in the wild west of sports betting. What the industry looks like today is not what it's going to look like in three years. It's not what it's going to look like in 10 years. We are in a very fast and evolving type structure. I compare it to AI a lot, you know, Kogod, we lead the nation in AI at AU. And what we see with AI now is not what we're going to see in five years, not what we're gonna see in 10 years. Sports betting is no different. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Wow. 

Sean McCool: So is there, is there sales tax on betting? Like where's the money go into the state? Where does it come from? What portion of the— 

Matt Bakowicz: So the answer, it depends.

Sean McCool: Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: There’s— it depends. Now I'll, I'll fast forward to–One of the models that people are looking at right now is we should tax a bet immediately when it's wagered. And what I mean by this is let's say you bet, we'll just use very simple terms. You bet a hundred dollars to win a hundred dollars. If you win, you win $198. We take 1%, two bucks go immediately to taxes. We pay you back $198. That's a model that Illinois is using currently at this time. And most of the Midwest States, others are still operating on the same structure that the United States government has used for gambling winnings. And what that comes down to is it's a, it's a mathematical equation for a bet. That's 300 to one based off of odds regulation. It’s mumbo jumbo. Here's what it comes down to. If, it's at the end of the day, whatever you make, your report, you pay taxes on. There's a very lengthy legal code that I could go back and forth with and bore your audience, too. They don't want to hear that. Here's what it comes down to. You pay, if you take all your winnings, take all your losses. If you have a win at the end of the year, let's just say you're up 10,000. You report that as income, you pay taxes off of that. 

That could get into a very long discussion of, well, how do you know how much you've won? How much do you know? How does this happen? How does this—you know, the online applications are very good at tracking that.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, it really is a depending type state. Many people like myself advocate for what I call, you know, a federal regulation across the board. There should be one system because what we're really dealing with is multiple systems across the, you know, entire United States at this point. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Cause I'm curious, like Jonathan's in Tennessee. I'm in Texas. Neither one of us have a state sales tax. So, I was just trying to figure out where the incentive for Texas is to allow, allow betting. 

Matt Bakowicz: And it would be two options. Option one would be number one: It would be if they have physical sports books, those physical sports books would pay sales tax to the state of Texas. It's about 4.5 to 5% of their revenue. So in short, you know, if you have a physical location, let's just say in Dallas, Texas,  it's very common to have sports books at stadiums. So we'll use AT&T as an example. You would have a physical sports book there. They make a million dollars, 4.5% of that would go to the state of Texas. 

Jonathan Taylor: Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's their first incentive. The better financial model, and I'm going to get some heat for this, for saying this, because it's going to make a lot of gamblers upset, but the better financial model is for every online better in Texas, you immediately take the taxes out from a win. So again, going back to that example, you win a hundred bucks– 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: It's money. We take two bucks from you. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's the better revenue generation model, but it comes with a little bit of some resistance from competitors and from players because, well you’re taking my winnings–  which is true.

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: So it's, it's never an easy answer, but the incentive would be either from the physical locations or the online location. And then with the casino apps that are part of all these online sports betting– Draft Kings has them that are tied in slot machines, whatnot, there is, it's basically 1200 around $1,200 of a win. You automatically are issued what's called a WG form and you are paying taxes on that.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Smarter gamblers will say, take it out immediately. I'll take the profit. Those that are very, very much entrenched will say, I want the full amount. I'm going to itemize my deductions. And then we get into tax code and your show gets really boring. And you guys are like, why is that saying you're talking about a tax flyer? So, you know, it's not a, it's not a fun, sexy question. It's just two options. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: Do you take it at the beginning or do you have people file their taxes? Personally, if you're, if I am advocating for the state, you take it, you take it right when the wind comes in. But then you're going back to a marketing platform. How much of your customer base is going to like that?

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: And that's always a good debate on that end.

Sean McCool: Yeah. And the reason I brought that up first is, you know, you need to know where the money's going to know how you're being—

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: —controlled and what part of the equation you are is in the whole overall business model. So all of these are percentage plays, right? As far as revenue for the States, for the, for the company. So, that means they need to get a bigger pie. 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. 

Sean McCool: And that's where everything we're talking about today kind of comes in. How do you, how do you get somebody to bet more, more often?

Matt Bakowicz: Well, you know, it's so funny you say that because what people don't realize is there's not a lot of money in sports betting. Let's take a slot machine. Slot machine pays out about nine to 10% of its wins, if you will. So we'll use that hundred-dollar example. They're keeping 90 bucks. They're going to pay out $10. You spin a slot machine, you pull the lever a million times. It's going to pay out 10%. So they're having a 90% tape. Pretty good. Sports betting, If you're doing four to 5% of a profit, you're having a great year.

Jonathan Taylor: Wow. 

Matt Bakowicz: With sports betting, it's not, it's one of the few gambling entities that's not a mathematical statistic structure. And I know that's a very weird sentence to say. What I mean by that is the roulette wheel will hold this advantage. The craps table will hold this advantage. The slot machine will hold this advantage. Sports betting has ups. It has downs. It has crazy upsets. It has Doug Flutie throwing a miracle in Boston. It's got Tom Brady with a tuck rule. It's got, you know, a guy hitting five home runs at the bottom of the ninth inning. I'm trying to think of a good baseball reference for that, but I don't got one right off the top of my head. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, you know, the reason they want more of the pie is it's not just a steady flow. It goes up, it goes down and the percentage isn't as high as people think. And that's where a lot of states are running into this issue is they thought they'd be making billions upon billions of dollars. Not really the case. It's a small percentage. The best really comparable business to sports betting is a grocery store. Grocery store margins are very low.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: A box of cereal it's, you know, one to 2% is what a grocery store margin really is. They work in volume. The more product that comes off the shelf in the grocery store, the more they make money. So, to answer your question in terms of going back to, well, how are they persuading? It's real simple. The more betting I get, the more volume we have, the more customers we have, the better we can have on that 4.5 to 5% run.

And that kind of goes into exactly what I think you guys brought me on to talk about is that's the main goal of these companies is to get you to be a participant as much as possible because the business model, it's not a high yield generating business model. It's a low percentage that needs to be sustained over time. 

Jonathan Taylor: They got to keep you coming back again and again. Right. I mean— 

Matt Bakowicz: Well said, sir.

Jonathan Taylor: It's really like playing golf. You know, I use the golf analogy. It’s like, it doesn't matter if you, if you win or you lose or have a horrible day, you always want to come back. You you know, and there's, there's a reason for wanting to come back and it's different from both scenarios, whether you're winning or losing. You want to come back again. If you're on top, if you're feeling that high, if you have a great round. And then if you do lousy, you're like, that's gotta be a fluke.

Matt Bakowicz: And Jonathan, as I'm still a current PGA professional, I did my undergrad at Penn State University.

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz: I got my PGA— 

Jonathan Taylor: Awesome!

Matt Bakowicz: – membership, still do that. So I love the golf reference.

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz:  Cause I know exactly what you're talking about on that. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. A lot of, a lot of analogies there. There's some chasing that goes into that as well. 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. So, I guess, I guess the moral of like, what I'm trying to say is that the persuasion portion is there because it's necessary for the business to succeed. You need customers constantly coming back. You know, you can't really rely off of, large sales or large amounts of money. It's, you need that steady pool. Otherwise, because of the expenses, because of the high level of marketing, because of the litigation, because of the fact that, look, it's one of the few businesses where you give away half your money after every bet.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Like every bet comes in, you lose half your profit immediately. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. 

Matt Bakowicz: I don't know another business that does that.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So,  you know, there's, there's challenges and there's a need to keep clients and you do everything you can to keep those clients.

Jonathan Taylor: Absolutely. 

Sean McCool: And that's, I think it's important for the user to know that that's the model because, you know, they're spreading their risk across however many members they have or subscribers or whatever you call it in that world. Better just whatever you call them. Um, but then you've got, you've only got your pile of money and you can't spread your own risk out. Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. Yes. 

Sean McCool: So, you gotta be careful with all that kind of stuff. So, what are some of the top ways that we see that gets people to come back and make, well, first of all, how do they hook you in the first place? Let's say, you know, somebody like me, I've never bet. I see the ads all the time. I'm curious. What kind of stuff are they doing to make me come and be a customer the first time? And then we'll get into repeats. 

Matt Bakowicz: We'll do a little experiment here. Sean, I'm sure you're a sports fan. Let's go with the NFL. What is your favorite team in the NFL or your team that you root for? 

Sean McCool: Well, let's do college. Cause I don't have a favorite NFL.

Matt Bakowicz: Sure. Okay. Let's go college football then. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. So Georgia Bulldogs. 

Matt Bakowicz: Perfect. How do you think Georgia Bulldogs are going to do this year in the playoffs and next year? 

Sean McCool: Next year. I have no idea. This year, I feel pretty good. I feel like they're peaking at the right time.

Jonathan Taylor: So, the Sugar Bowl. So I'll say the Sugar Bowl, the line six and a half for Georgia. So I'm going to, I'm going to pretty–-I'm pretty confident they're going to cover that next week in the Sugar Bowl against— 

Matt Bakowicz: Let me ask you both this question. Sean, you said that you're pretty confident they're peaking right now. Jonathan, you said they're going to cover. Why do you say that?

Sean McCool:  It's based off of the initial game during the season and where this team, where this team's trending defensively.

Matt Bakowicz: Okay. Both of you, I think would agree. You have some knowledge of the Bulldogs. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: You have, you have an understanding. You've seen games. You have watched, you have knowledge. Think about now, let's take a step back. Think about other things that make money. Do we really know what the stock market's going to do? We can say we can predict it, but that's hard. Do we know what the roulette wheel is going to hit? You can say, you know, you look at that beautiful table up there. It's been black nine numbers in a row. It's got to be red. It's a 50, 50 chance. You don't know sports betting hooks people immediately because it is one of the few things where you as a person feel that you have an advantage based on the knowledge you bring to the table. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right.

Matt Bakowicz: You feel like I have an edge and going up against a casino, every single gambler, whether you know it or not, wants an edge. And it might be, I brought my lucky rabbit's foot. It might be the bingo lady that has the troll doll.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  It might be that. Listen, this is my slot machine. It might be the roulette table where you've seen 12 blacks in a row and you know it's got to be red. It doesn't matter. It's what's called an edge. And sports betting is one of the few things where across America, psychologically, you feel like I am making this investment or this bet with prior knowledge and prior information thinking that I'm right. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's the first hook. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. 

Matt Bakowicz: That is how they hook individuals immediately. It's, it's not flipping a coin where you're like, Oh, I could win. I might not lose. I got a 50, 50 chance. It's not putting numbers on red 23. It's not pulling a lever. That's random. That is all random draw. That is predetermined. Mathematics have proven time and time again, since the 1700s, that this is what the outcome is going to be. But with sports, you think, I know. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  I know Georgia is going to win this game. I know that this is going to happen. I know that I, you know, I am a graduate of Penn State. I know that we're going to beat Ohio State this time, even though we've lost the last 18 times against them. 

Sean McCool: That's right. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's the first hook. That is the passion of, I have knowledge. Think about it like this. 

Sean McCool: It's like that insider trading thing, right?  If I work at a company—

Matt Bakowicz:  I was just going to say that. You read my mind. It's like, if you knew the stock was going to peak tomorrow, you'd invest. It's no different. So you have, you have that. So that's the first hook. Before we even get into any of the marketing strategies, you're already hooked because you think you have the answer. And think about it from how our society is now developing from a psychological, and I will, I'm going to, this is a huge start. I'm not a psych major. I'm not a psych professor. I have no idea about psychology. So let me pause there and just say that out loud. But I do know enough from working in this industry to know from a psychology standpoint, when you have knowledge of information, you're more inclined to pick that decision or make that choice because you're confident in the decision based on your previous information. So that's their first hook. It's– all it is. It's a manipulated psychology game. You think you know the answer. 

So, what we have to start there and that's, that's the first thing is, and if you think about it and if your listeners are listening to this, they've probably made the vast majority of their bets because they thought they knew the answer to that game. That's where it all starts. That is the foundation. 

Sean McCool: Yeah, and–  

Matt Bakowicz: We can talk about the system and moving from there. 

Sean McCool: And to follow up on what you're saying, I think a lot of people, I think that's where a lot of these, um, these small podcasts that have grown incredibly, you know, you look at, you know, Dave Portnoy, his, his platform, but you look at all of these other sports related, whether it's college football, whether it's NBA, all of these niche podcasts out there that have shows that discuss like the ins and outs of every team. And, you know, who has the advantage that week, what the injuries are, what this, what the matchups, what the schemes, you know, people tune into that for a reason 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. 

Sean McCool: And they come away thinking, okay, now I've got, I've got enough information that I feel confident in laying this.

Matt Bakowicz: And you know what? And I'll knock a few of those. If you notice some of the best ones, and this comes from my DC backgrounds, they don't actually make a choice. 

Sean McCool: Exactly. 

Matt Bakowicz: They just tell you stuff like, well, you know, the line moves to three and a half, I would take it, but it's at four right now. So I'm going to hold 

Sean McCool: Exactly, Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Or the smart money would be on the over. If Lamar Jackson plays, they don't give me an answer.

Sean McCool: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz:  That's, that's political doctrine world. And shoot, I deal with that 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the Metro riding up and down DC. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, so I know where they're coming from, but it does persuade the psychological boundaries. 

Sean McCool: Absolutely. 

Matt Bakowicz: So we got to start with that. And I, and I, not to get, not to get too technical in theory on you, cause I'm not a theory professor. I'm a, I'm a doer professor and I like practicality, but you got to lay that foundation. We think we know the answer.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  And when I think we know the answer, we're more confident in our wagering. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. The good old cognitive bias comes in. So how does– Okay, so let's say we think we have this, this edge, but it seems like a good bit of the time. It seems like these betting apps with those, you know, their spread, their points, their over and unders and all the different things seem to also have some insider knowledge. They seem to be right more often than not. 

Matt Bakowicz: Without a doubt. So— 

Sean McCool: So where does that come from? And like, how are they staying in touch with so many different, you know, I mean, all the different games that are going on? 

Matt Bakowicz: Let's talk about how they form their lines. So, when it comes to a game, they have technology and I have been part of this technology. I run this technology. They simulate the matchup over 10 million times. We can simulate a million games. Let's just use, I know the Patriots play. I want to say the Jets, I want to say the Jets, but I think that's wrong. I know they have one more game against the Dolphins. It might be Jets- Dolphins. I'm an, you know, we'll go with my, we'll go with my Eagles because I know who they're playing this week. My Eagles are playing the Bills. So, we'll go with my Eagles. They will simulate that Eagles-Bills game with all the data, with all the current stats, all the information, 1 million times. They can do that every seven minutes. 

Sean McCool: Wow. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's where our current AI technology is at right now. So you've simulated that game. Then they'll do that, I don't know, about 10 times in a row. So they've simulated it, let's say 10 million times. They will come up with what the average score is going to be. They will put that out there. They'll put that out there, but they will limit, they'll put that out there on Sunday. What I tell everybody is, everybody asks me, what's the best time to bet, Matt? It is Sunday night— 

Sean McCool: Yes. 

Matt Bakowicz: After the Sunday football game. Everybody goes, but what does America do? Everybody in America puts their bets in 12 p.m., Sunday of game day. That's the worst time to bet. So, the comment I came back with, if you want to keep the green, do not put your bets in on Sunday at 12 o'clock before the 1 o'clock kickoffs. Put them in Sunday night the week before and do some research because you'll have a much better chance of being successful with those lines. It's my first tip out of the gate.

So,  what they do is they simulate the game. They put it out there. 

Sean McCool: But I've always heard the Sharps move the line at the last minute. Like the professionals really start getting in at the last minute. 

Matt Bakowicz: Most professionals actually bet at that original line. 

Sean McCool: Really? Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: Most professionals don't wait until the end because the professionals, so then, and this is how the process works. So the line will come out Sunday evening for next Sunday's game. They will limit the amount of money that can be wagered on there. So, you can't bet a million dollars on a line. You can bet 50 bucks, 60 bucks.

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: Every player has a profile. They have charts. They have stats. They have win percentages. Sports betting companies know every single thing about the person that is making that bet. How successful are they? How much they win? What is their percentage? They will look at those that win, let's just say 80, 90% of the time and say, oh man, they're all betting that the Eagles are going to dominate Buffalo and win at three and a half. We better raise this to four and a half because the sharp actions. How do they stay profitable? They don't let the sharps bet $10,000.

They let them bet 50 bucks. They gather all that information. They adjust the line to four and a half. They take more action. They take more bets. The example I always use is, okay, let's say the University of Alabama is playing South Alabama. All right. Now the line is zero. Sean, who are you going to bet on? It's South Alabama versus Alabama. First game of the season. The line is zero. What are you taking? 

Sean McCool: Taking Alabama for sure. 

Matt Bakowicz: You take Alabama. Now we could play this game all the way up to, now let's go to 54 and a half. Alabama at 54 and a half. I might ask Sean the same question. He'll say, Matt, I might want to take South Alabama because Alabama is going to put their backups in in the third and fourth quarter and they may not be as successful. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So they get all that pre data set that 54 and a half. They take the sharp data on Sunday and Monday. Those already have the profile from, massage that line. They get to Sunday. They're at about a 50% predictability of how that game is going to happen. Multiply that by 300 plus games with the NBA, NHL, et cetera, et cetera, all across the board. Now we've got a profitable business with supported data that has mathematical statistics. Over time, yeah, you're going to make a mistake. A team's going to blow somebody off 31, nothing. You're going to have an upset, but those are what we call outliers. You're trying to keep the consistent structure forward. And if you follow this pattern, that's exactly what's going to happen. And also if you win on a crazy upset, more than likely, you're going to bet it again, going, I hit this one for 500 bucks. Let's do it again.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: All of the money. So, take the money and run. Second tip of the day: take the money and run. You hit a big win, take the money. Run. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Revisit back to your original betting. Don't up your, if you have won in a hundred dollars, do not up your betting to 200, 300 or $400. Take it and run because mathematically, you're not going to win again and again and again.

Sean McCool: Yeah, that makes sense. So, does each company have its own analyst or systems and all that kind of stuff? Or is there? 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes.

Sean McCool: Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: Every company has their own team. They have their own— It's actually quite funny. Every company has their own team that also spies on every other team. 

Sean McCool: Yeah, Of course. 

Matt Bakowicz: So, all of them look at what's this other company's line. What's their line? What's that? They have their own trading team. They also have their own marketing team. So, let's talk about the trading team. I think we can put to bed. The trading team does this. They simulate the game a million times. They put a line out. They get data from players that tend to win more. They limit them so they can't take huge losses and they adjust the line accordingly. Okay, we're good. Like that's, there's the model. That's the blueprint. It's pretty basic and simple. 

The second part of it is the marketing team. That's where the bulk of the money is in these sports betting companies. Because honestly, between AI, a good IT person, and somebody that can do basic math, that's all you need for the line. It's pretty basic.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Most sports betting companies, their trading team is the smallest team of the division. It's really the small–  and you think like, Matt, wouldn't that be the most? I'm like, not really. It's a pretty basic process. 

Now we get into the second half. That's the marketing team. Every single major metropolitan area has hosts that contact the top players, that give them incentives to play, that will put bonuses in their account, that watch their gaming, that watch that. So now you have a second layer, and this is where the profit comes in, or in case of your show, the persuasion comes in. Now, I've got a dedicated person that is giving me a bonus this week, that is adding money into my account, that can get me free concert tickets, that's incentivizing me into playing this week and keeping the machine going. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: And as we talked about at the beginning, that's the goal. Keep the machine flowing, keep the process going. So really, where the success is for these betting companies has absolutely nothing to do with their lines. They're always going to be mathematically correct. They're always going to win. The house always wins. You know, George Clooney said in Ocean's 11, the house always wins. The joke that I always say when I go to Vegas, they didn't build those hotels with their money. 

Sean McCool: That's right. 

Matt Bakowicz: But, really what keeps people coming back is their marketing team. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's the success behind it. And you guys can feel free to fire questions at me. And I can tell you how the marketing structure works, but that's the meat and potatoes of every one of these companies. 

Sean McCool: Well, I've noticed on the marketing side, obviously you've got commercials and things like that, but you just mentioned some other forms of marketing, which I think are really interesting. But I've noticed it's now embedded into the sportscaster commentary. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Sean McCool: And, you know, it's like, you know, the sports personalities are actually talking about the line or they're building their own parlays right before the game. You know, just weird little stuff like that. Not weird, but just. 

Matt Bakowicz: Yep.

Sean McCool: It makes it feel like part of the show and like they're actually giving you information, but I know that's got to be paid for, right? 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. Yeah. Very simple. As I mentioned at the beginning, the biggest expense these companies spend are marketing. I, for many years produced high school football with some good friends down at Penn State, um, with Joe Putnam, with Brian Trip, and we would have a book and Brian and Joe would have to read these advertisements. Why? The company would pay to have those advertisements read Draft Kings, FanDuel.They're the two big ones. Caesars, MGM. We use those as the big four. They pay Fox, CBS to read that information. They give them money and say, Hey, you guys want to run NFL on Sunday? Great. Here's X amount of dollars. I want you to talk about the line. So it's all, it's, you're exactly right. It's all paid advertisements, all paid sponsorship. So,I don't have a secret to it. They say, Hey, listen, we want you to talk about the line because we're paying you to talk about the line. It's, it's not, it's not a mystery.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: And– 

Sean McCool: But, I think for the average consumer, if they're not aware of that, it feels like reporting. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Correct. It feels natural–

Sean McCool: Where that's going on. Then you're going to, you could, you know, you could lean one way or the other based on, you know, whatever the commentator says. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know, take, take Troy Aikman, for example, a Cowboys fan might say, listen, Troy's, Troy's a great guy. I remember from the, you know, the mid nineties. Troy says, I don't think that the Cowboys are going to cover. You might be more inclined to listen to that. And that's where we get kind of in the trap of, and I guess, you know, I don't know. I think I'm inadvertently making a list here of tips, but my third tip is: just be very cautious of the recommendations from those that are on TV because they're being paid to make recommendations. 

Sean McCool: Right.

Matt Bakowicz: And what I mean by that is they might be right, but what I say in that sense is they're being asked to make a choice versus more of a– 

Sean McCool: So they are being asked to say over or under or— 

Jonathan Taylor: Who they... Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct.

Sean McCool: But that's really valuable information to know. 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes. Versus other bettors who, you know what? I might pick a game because statistically this is in my favor. There's a 68% chance of this winning. I'm making that choice versus Matt, you got to pick all 17 games this week. I want a decision. Choose, you know, choose that information, but that's a very different persona and, you know, perspective than, Hey, listen, we want you to pick the two that you think are the best. I'm going to do some research on that. I'm going to pick this from mathematical perspective. I got to pick all 17. Look, I got to make a choice at the end of the day. I may not always be right. Actually, I'm not going to be always right. If what the math says it. So yeah, casual fans don't know that. And, and that's what concerns me a little bit is realize that the person making the pick is doing it because they're getting a check, not for their bet being correct, but for the pick.

Sean McCool: Right. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Sean McCool: And it feels like it's separate because you have a commercial that'll run right before, right after that segment. And you know, that's a commercial, like, you know, you're being advertised to, but then when they put it into the context of editorial and commentary, you know, if you do that in print advertising, you have to say at the top, this is an advertorial. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: And you don't have to do that right now. Maybe that's one of the things that like you alluded to in three years. 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. Look at the— and that's one of the things where I say it's a wild west.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: There needs to be a bit more regulation. There needs to be some rules attached to it. You know, for example, I'm really not a fan of prop bets for college basketball players. It's too much of an incentive. Not every school has the ability to pay huge NIL contracts, okay. There's a very big difference between playing basketball at Duke and playing basketball at Mississippi Valley State Technical Institute. You guys get the idea. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. You, you went out there for a little bit. I think the last we heard you say was you get the point after you said Mississippi State Technical Valley Institute. Did we lose this audio or see if there's anything in the chat? Test test. You still there? Oh, still there. Matt? 

Matt Bakowicz: Still there. 

Sean McCool: There we go.

Matt Bakowicz:  I hope that wasn't on my end. 

Sean McCool: Yeah, it was on– I think it was, but no worries. We're back now.

Matt Bakowicz:  I'm sorry about that— 

Sean McCool: Probably solar flare. 

Matt Bakowicz: Apologies. What I was just saying was very simple. I'm not a fan of prop bets for college basketball. It leads to what could be, you know, a negative. And that's why I think we need some rules and regulations, but you know, they'll — life will sort it out. And, look, I also say this: people think that sports betting is going to bring on this big wave of negativity in terms of gambling, you know, disorders and people that are addicted to sports. Look, people were gambling on sports before this was legal. And if this wasn't here in 10 years, they'll still be doing the same thing. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: We're just more aware of what's going on. So— 

Sean McCool: But I mean, there's more structure. To be fair, it is more accessible now than it's ever been. 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. Yes. 

Jonathan Taylor: It's easier than it's ever been. Easier. Yeah. That's the thing. That's the key.

Sean McCool: So one of the stats I have is that– what's the– let's see 22% of Americans have an online sports book account. Half of men, 18 to 49 have one, but then there was one about apps.

So, mobile sports bettors report higher rates of problematic gambling than other bettors, 22% versus 18. So, it sounds like the app is more— One, it's more accessible. It's more immediate.

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. 

Sean McCool: What else is going on from a design standpoint with the apps? And we, I mean, no, we know we can have them on the sofa, while you're watching the game or during the pregame, that kind of stuff. But what else is going on?

Jonathan Taylor: You can bet during the game. Like, that's the thing you could. 

Matt Bakowicz: Of course. So I guess I'll talk about the push notifications. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's probably the easiest way to start. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: There are constant push notifications for so many categories. I can– I look at my phone right now. I have two push notifications from FanDuel, like staring at my phone right now. I could read them off to you. The company constantly sends you like, Hey, here's what's going on. What do you think? Last night's Monday football game—I got a push notification with Brock. Brock Purdy’s on fire. There's a prop bet on how many touchdowns he's going to have three and a half over under. So, they're constantly pinging users. Like, here's what's going on. Here's what's happening in the media. They're also constantly pinging users with reward opportunities that aren't really reward opportunities. 10% profit boost. Look at the end of the day, you might get an extra $3, but you might think, Hey, that's pretty cool. I got a profit boost. I might as well bet.

Okay. So, let's say they send a 10% profit boost to half a million people and 100,000 bet. And 50% of that gets that wrong. There we go.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: I'm just, I've just nailed my– so it's, it's all about the push notifications and they're timed perfectly. The algorithms that sports betting companies use know everything about the user profile. They know when you bet, they know how likely you are to bet. They know your favorite game. They know your favorite team. The data is insane.

So, they can tailor a message specifically to your account that says, Hey man, the Eagles play the Bills on this day. Let's give you a 20% profit boost with rules and stipulations that are set for their benefit minus 200 odds, no more than $200. Here's this. And you're like, you know, I don't watch this game. I'm an Eagles fan. I'm going to watch it. Let's get some skin in the game. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: I might not even be thinking about putting a bet in, but I see that pop my phone. We're a generation on cell phones nowadays, folks. It's like, Oh, it's there. I've got to go. So very calculated, very deliberate messaging. It's a tactic that is different than most advertisement. Advertisement goes out there. They try to figure out what their target market is. But, for a lot of TV advertisements, they don't really know who's watching at times. They can guess. But like, I'm a huge fan of the today show and I love Jenna and friends. I'm a male age 34. I am not even remotely close into the mom demographic of 46 that watches that. So, you know, you can't really advertise to me. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: But in sports betting, they know who Matt Bakowicz is. They know exactly what his information is. They know he's an Eagles fan. They know he bets between X amount of dollars and this. Here's how to, here's how to go through that. So very, very specific. I would call it the sniper method of marketing. They target you so specifically to your likes that you almost can't help but saying, might as well do it.

And that's, and that's kind of where it comes from. And the reward system, too. The more you bet, the more you're rewarded, but it's nowhere near the percentage of what you earn. I might get a $100 betting bonus after wagering $10,000. Congratulations. You got my 10 grand. We'll give you a hundred bucks to be nice. You're already laughing. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know exactly what you're doing. It's like, Ooh, here's, here's a hundred bucks, Matt. Thank you for the $9,900 you lost to us. We'll give you a hundred and maybe that'll entice you for another 10,000. Well, there you are. Now, granted, I don't bet that kind of level by any means whatsoever, but I know people that do, and I know people that are involved with that. And that's, and that's very targeted and very specific marketing. 

Jonathan Taylor: You know, one of the attractive things in a lot of these apps like DraftKings is betting a little bit like on these parlays, cause you'll have these parlays that are put together. And it's a little bit of money for a lot. You know, if you land, you know, it's like the lottery. You know, if you happen to land all of these legs, whether it's, you know, five leg, three leg, eight leg, you know, 12 leg. Who puts, I mean, how do, how do these things get assembled? Cause I noticed sometimes it's such and such recommends, or this is, you know– 

Matt Bakowicz: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: Dave Fortnoy's, you know, you know, rock solid parlay for this week or, or whatever.

I'm curious how those are assembled, these parlays that they put together. 

Matt Bakowicz: Okay, Tip number four that we're on right now. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Don't bet the, do not bet the parlays that the sports betting companies have advertised. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. Yeah. Cause you can make your own, you can put your own together.

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. They slip something in there that's almost never going to happen. I'll give you two great, I'll give you two great examples. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz: Two parlays that I had this fall that I was looking at, I actually taught this in class. I might–  teach sports betting as a class— 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: For my students for a lot of reasons. One for responsible gaming, two to understand the industry. But for several reasons outside of this, I showed him two parlays. One of them was Derek white making three pointers. Okay. His two pointers were six three pointers. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: He had not made six three pointers in three years of play, but it was on that parlay. Bet $10, win 3000. Okay. Maybe at one point in time, you might have something like that hit. The guy has like a miracle day, but all those built-in parlays from the advertisement standpoint usually have something in there that's almost next to not happening, but it's enticing. Like, oh my God, if I bet $10, I could win $3000. 

Jonathan Taylor; Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's great. Little psychology there. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. 

Matt Bakowicz: Parlays in terms of win percentage, 9.18 is the magic number. It varies, 9.2. 

Jonathan Taylor: Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's just accessory. That's almost like a slot machine. Casinos will tell you their best revenue is their slot machines. So, all those parlays, no chance of those happening. The guys can put them together. They're fun. They're cool to talk about because, oh my God, I could win. As I'm talking to you guys right now, I think what is the Powerball up to like $1.25 billion? 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Sure. Like you could win with the five numbers plus the Powerball, but again, statistically very hard. Sports betting companies love them because they're the best revenue for them. They make the most money. And also- 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, because it's low risk. I mean, or it's low. 

Matt Bakowicz: Right. 

Jonathan Taylor: You put a little bit down and you've got a chance. It's like buying that lottery ticket, right?

Matt Bakowicz: But overall, the vast majority of time you're going to lose.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  And here's the kicker. If you do win, you probably put $5 down to win $300. Very few people– here's the more interesting statistic that most don't pay attention to, the cash out rate. How many people then cash out that win or- 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh, they don't. 

Matt Bakowicz: Right. They reinvest. 

Jonathan Taylor: So yeah, that's a good question. Do you, I mean, what is the percentage of people that actually cash out winnings?

Matt Bakowicz: And that's– and there's a big concern that I have with sports betting companies of, this is one of the things that I would advocate for as somebody who has a very, very high, you know, affection for politics in the United States, whether it's the state, local, or federal level. When you make a withdrawal, you have the ability to cancel that withdrawal within 24 hours, which I don't like because it's more susceptible to, I put the money away, I'm being smart. I'm tempted to cancel, I get the money back.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Or you kind of come back into the perspective of, all right, it's not deposited immediately into my bank account. Oh, I might want to deposit more. I might want to kind of go back down that route. So at the end of the day, I'm a little leery of the fact that when you make a withdrawal, you have the ability to cancel that, or it takes forever to get back in your bank account. But a deposit, 12 seconds in, money's in your account. 

Jonathan Taylor: Sure. 

Matt Bakowicz: Not the most fair strategy from an addictive perspective. 

Jothan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know, you're up, and I'll make the comparison to alcohol.

You have had too much at the bar, the bartender cuts you off. 

Jonathan Taylor: That's right. 

Matt Bakowicz: It's a law. The bartender will not serve you a second or third drink. Ramp certification, state of Pennsylvania, bartender seven years, I know the rules. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz: They can't serve you another alcoholic drink. That's against the law. They are responsible to make sure you’re okay. Sport's betting is a little bit different. You have the ability to cancel. You have the ability to kind of come back on that money. So a little bit of a challenge there when it comes to that ethical perspective. 

Sean McCool: Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm sure if you do withdraw, you probably get a couple extra push notifications. 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. Or an incentive of what you may end up getting is, oh, deposit bonus. Let's say you withdraw the money goes in your account. Next day, $200 deposit bonus, 10% of your deposit comes back in that. Now you've got an extra $20. It's worth putting that $200 back into the account. Look, it's, again, it kind of goes back to what I talked about at the beginning of the show.

It is a tool and a system that needs to be progressing in order to be profitable. And the marketing department is your engine of that tool. It's not the lines. It's not the betting. It's not any of that. It's just we need constant flow and constant customers to be successful. And I also say, look, at the end of the day, you can have fun. You can place bets. I'm not trying to be negative on this. I love it. I teach it. I'm part of the industry. I feel like I'm very negative Nancy, on this. I'm not. It's, you can be very responsible. Just know the knowledge behind it and play with that knowledge. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: I think you'll be in good shape. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, that's typically what I do. And I don't bet on anything but college football because I just don't like to mess around with anything else that I don't understand or I'm not familiar with. But, you know, I'll put $100 in an account. And then if I lose that through the season, then I'm done, right?  But if it builds, if it makes a little, I'll keep it in there.

And, you know, it's just fun to see if you can grow that, you know, through the season. 

Matt Bakowicz: So what I tell a lot of people I deal with, the one thing I will very much respect about all the big sports betting companies, they have responsible gaming limits that you can add to your app.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: So while it is easily accessible, what's also easily accessible is limits. So what I would tell somebody is if you're going to bet the college football season, before you even win, put your limits in place and set them. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz: So like I can't deposit more than $300 a month. I can't wager more than $50.

Put all those in at the beginning. 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh, you can do that? You can put like– 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes. Most people don't know this. 

Jonathan Taylor: Wow. 

Matt Bakowicz: You can actually put a deposit limit for a month, a year, six months, whatever your time frame is of, I can't deposit more than one. And you can't like, you can call it. You can call the company and cry. When I used to work at the casino, I had people coming up going, I put my limits on. I want to deposit more. It's like, sorry. But at the end of the day, I think to myself, you know what? You probably shouldn't be betting.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: And that cooling off period lets you clear your head and realize—

Jonathan Taylor: Yes. 

Matt Bakowicz: – that this is a much better route. So I guess we're on tip five. I didn't think I was doing a tip list, but here we are. I guess we're on tip five: is set those limits before you even make your first wager and say to yourself, I'm only going to wage you $200 this month. If I lose, I lose it. 

Jonathan Taylor: That's it. 

Matt Bakowicz: Pre-program all that in. You can't make a deposit. And then emotions will take. You might lose and be like, oh, I'm angry. Or, oh my God, Georgia football's playing in the playoffs. They're up by 10. I know they're going to win this game. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Hang on a second. Let the system protect you. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right, Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Put those preferences in place and go from there. And that's what I think is most safe for everybody across the board. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. It's like, it's no different than percentage size or position sizing and stop losses in the stock market. 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. 

Sean McCool: Which almost nobody does, but– 

Matt Bakowicz: And a lot of it is because most of them don't have the knowledge behind it. And that's what I try to do in my class is try to educate a little bit of my students. But also if I ever do any speaking engagements, talk about like, look, responsible gaming is important and there's nothing wrong with it. This is how you want to spend your money. And this is your entertainment. That's fine. Do it in a responsible manner. And here's the way to do it. And you'll be, you'll be just fine. If you can say, I can say, I'm going to spend $200 this month of January on NFL playoffs. That's fine. Don't do it after you put the bets in, put that limit in immediately, set that lock in and say, okay, now I'm going to have some fun. I'm going to go from there. And then when those push notifications come in, guess what? You don't really get to react to them because you can't do anything. You know, and then you're, you're in a much better, safer position and you can still enjoy the product and have some fun behind it. 

Jonathan Taylor: I noticed a lot of these podcast shows, they talk when they talk about games and betting and who's going to cover and all of this, they always, it seems every time they are, it's almost like it's required for them to say, if you have a betting problem or if you have a gambling problem, you need to call this number or seek help, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is that required by law? Like anybody? 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes, that is a state and federal law at both levels. 

Jonathan Taylor: Okay. 

Matt Bakowicz: Any advertisement has to have that state's gambling helpline attached to it. Connecticut, it's 1-800-GAMBLE. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Every state has to have that attached to that. And they do have to have that conversation. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: But I think like, okay, it's one thing to make that read, but I think my comment at the beginning might be better. Like, listen, before we even like, I wish Rob Gronkowski who did the kick of destiny twice for FanDuel would come on and say, Hey guys, before you bet on this week's games, pick your limit, set your limit. I'll give you a pause. Spend five seconds of Fox NFL Sunday doing that. Let everybody put their bets in afterwards. That's a much better way, I think from a business model, to keep your fans engaged, to keep people from going too far down the road of gambling addiction. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: And now you have every week I wait for Ron's comment. I set my limit. I put my games in. I'm good from there. Sounds to me like that machine would be turning a lot faster with a lot more satisfied customers than those that are chasing the win or in debt because of too many sports bets. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Well, this, I know you're not a psychologist, but Jonathan and I have talked about this before. Like the real draw of this is that it makes each game more exciting.

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. 

Sean McCool: It's really just about the adrenaline, right? I mean, is that, at the end of the day, would you agree with that? Is that what's going on?

Matt Bakowicz:  It's a natural high. You're, you're without a doubt. It is an endorphin, you know, high here in the head. It's an endorphin high for two perspectives. One, the ability to win money without, I wouldn't say actually doing work, but I don't have a better phrase for it. You get money for doing nothing. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You click the button. The second part is, look, I will make this comment. I hope I don't get too much heat for it. People love being right. Americans love being right. It's an ego thing. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: I love being right. And I love bragging rights. I called that. I knew he was going to hit a home run. You know, my dad's a big Yankee fan and I would love to say like, you know, dad, Judge is hot tonight. You know, like he might be hitting one yard. And if he'd hit one in the second inning, I'd send him a text. Like we knew he'd get that one. You get the ego, you get the endorphin rush, you get a natural high, which I will very much say is better than any artificial high. You know, you guys know where I'm going with that natural high. Always. But you get the ego. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You get the endorphin rush. So yes. 

Jonathan Taylor: And it does, like Sean said, it gets you engaged in the games you normally, and I'm sure the TV networks love this because—

Matt Bakowicz: Without a doubt. 

Jonathan Taylor: You know, there's games like throughout this bowl season, you know, during the holidays, you have all these bowl games and a lot of them are just lousy games. I mean, you look at the, you look at the attendance in the stands and there's hardly anybody there, but the networks are making money off of this because it's getting eyeballs. 

Sean McCool: Well, I mean– 

Jonathan Taylor: And I'm sure a lot of that's because people have money on this, you know, whoever, whoever's playing.

Matt Bakowicz: When I would trade games, I would do a lot of mid Wednesday and Tuesday games. There'd be one or two schools that played 11 o'clock for it. They had a lot of travel stuff. Like they need, I had a bus going there. A lot of it was the Atlantic 10 and the MEAC. And I would have like St. Francis Brooklyn versus, I don't know, let's just say, Long Island University, 11 o'clock basketball game. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. 

Matt Bakowicz: Nobody knows a single player on that. Our handle would approach half a million dollars of in-game wagering because it was the only on TV. People loved it and it was sports betting perspective. So, now you have an 11 o'clock game that would never have any televised, you know, millions of people watching this because it's the only thing to bet on. And what am I going to do at 11 o'clock? I'm going to bet on the game. So, TV loves it. It's beneficial for viewership. It helps with advertising dollars. Like look for, I'm going to put your car commercial on here. This is our ratings.

Not only do we have it because of the game, we also have from the betting market. You can sell an ad for a motor company involved and with a lot of money comes challenges, comes the need to regulate, you know regulation, comes laws. If you guys had me on in five years, I guarantee you it's going to be a completely different conversation than how we're going to be talking about sports betting right now. 

Sean McCool: Oh yeah. I don't doubt that. I mean, like you said, anywhere there's those big pots of money floating around, you know, regulations, all kinds of stuff's going to happen, happen with it. 

Jonathan Taylor: And you say right now, there's only a handful of States that are kind of have held out like, which I'm sure those will– 

Matt Bakowicz: This is actually a subject I teach in my class. It's a very, without getting too political, it's a very party line decision. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: A liberal versus conservative movement, draw your own conclusions on which States have held out and why.

Jonathan Taylor: Well, I know Alabama cause I drive and I can't use my Draft Kings hat in the state of Alabama. So they've got to be one of those.

Matt Bakowicz: Yes. And you can draw a lot of parallels to, parallels, excuse me, to, medical marijuana and marijuana usage. 

Joanthan Taylor: Yeah. Yup. 

Matt Bakowicz: Very similar. It's almost, it's almost a, if you look at geographical maps from 1776 all the way up to 2026, which I actually do in my class, I show, you know, my students, I'm like decisions are made based on political structure and movements. Those are the hold outs. Will that change? Look at the end of the day, there is a tax revenue to be made. And what most States are looking at Missouri is the best example of this that just legalized. There was this amazing map that was published about three weeks ago that literally tracked the GPS of cell phone users who were leaving the state, betting in States that were legal and coming back. It's this amazing red grid. And they look at that and go, we need that revenue. Pennsylvania is probably the best example for casinos.

Governor Ed Randall at the time, he said, look, if we don't legalize casino gaming, which they now have 17 casinos all throughout the state, they're going to go to Atlantic City. They're going to go elsewhere. We need to keep the revenue in our state. That's going to be your incentive. 

Sean McCool: Yeah.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. It's just like the lottery, man. If you live on the border, you’re probably crossing the state line to go buy some lottery tickets, right? 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. So, you know, states will look at that. I just hope they look at it with a lens of, okay, we're bringing this in. It does generate revenue, but let's put safeguards in to protect our citizens.

Sean McCool: Sure. 

Matt Bakowicz: —and make sure. And that comes down with education. Education is the most powerful thing. I'm a professor. Education is the most powerful tool you can give individuals. The more knowledge you have, the more informed decisions you can make. And look, you can make informed decisions. Have a lot of fun. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yea. 

Matt Bakowicz: Living proof. I get to teach sports every day at college. That is the coolest job in the world. 

Jonathan  Taylor: That's awesome.

Sean McCool: That is cool. I don't know if you know, Matt, but, Jonathan has a college textbook that he's written in the world of golf, so. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Very cool. 

Sean McCool: If you ever want to teach a class on golf, Jonathan can hook you up.

Matt Bakowicz:  I would love, I would love to read that. That sounds awesome. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: “Selling on the Green,” find it in fine book score bookstores, maybe Amazon. 

Matt Bakowicz: Funny enough, since we mentioned golf, that was one of the more challenging sports betting lines to create. 

Sean McCool: Oh yeah. I would never bet golf. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: I traded live– Well, it wasn't so much the players, like the winner of a tournament was actually, you know, you can predict like, okay, percentage wise minus 14 going to Sunday. Fine. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: What we tried to do at Simple Bet was live golf. And I was actually their main trader and it was predicting how a player would perform on each hole. So, you know, yourself, the amount of effects that happen on a golf hole. Let's take a par three. If the wind is with you, it's great one day. If the wind is against you— 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: If the pin is in back center or off to the far right, figuring out the math on that for live bettings. Oh my God. I, there were times, yeah, the sharp action. They got me. They put these bets and I'm like, yep, you guys know more than I do on that one. So, trying to mathematically calculate AI was not fast enough on that. And I was doing a lot of manual stuff. So, that was a fun experience. Really, really cool. Trying to consider how to do that. 

Jonathan Taylor: That's awesome. 

Sean McCool: That's wild. And as you think of AI getting faster and smarter, like the limits are just, there are no limits about, you know, the types of bets that I think will be created in the future and everything else. So you really have to kind of keep these tips that you've mentioned in mind to keep yourself safe. 

Jothan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know, it's, I think it all goes back to set your limit before your first bet. That's probably my most, my most, you know, informative bet. Keep the, keep yourself in the green, set your limit before your first bet. Be very cautious of the recommendations that announcers are making because they're required to make those recommendations. Be cautious of that.

Make decisions because you believe in that decision, not because it's advertised for you. And you know what? You might get push notifications Friday at five o'clock. Turn your phone off and spend some time with your family members. You don't have to bet every day. And you know what? Things in moderation. I'm a big popcorn fan. I love, I love Pop Secret. I love popcorn. I know it's not healthy for you, but if I eat a bag every day, I'd be at 500 pounds. Once a week is okay on that side. So, things in moderation are okay. And you know, that'll, that'll lead to some good entertainment for you.

Jonathan Taylor: Speaking of AI is, uh, you know, we, I know the betting companies are using this, but I mean, the betters themselves are, are you seeing the people are, you know, people that are betting, are they using AI to run? 

Matt Bakowicz: Without a doubt. But I will also say this isn't anything new. You'll have this group. You look up the billies of the world and those that are sports betting fans know what I'm talking about here. They had the computer club back in the 1970s. 

Sean McCool: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: People are always looking for a mathematical edge. 

Sean McCool: Sure. 

Matt Bakowicz: That's where you get the sharp action. But look, I, and I will warn the sharps. The classic business comment, right to refuse service to anyone. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: What happens when you become a sharp or a statistical advantage player, they turn your betting ability off. So, when anybody tells me like, Oh, Matt, I can make money off of this. Sure. For how long? Because eventually if you are winning at all times, you will not be allowed to bet. 

Jonathan Taylor: Wow. 

Matt Bakowicz: And the big companies do this and they, and they shut you down. They're like, you're not allowed to bet. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: That is, we, the three of us could have a whole other show on the ethical, structure of that. You know, the right to refuse service, but you've beaten me. No different than counting cards, the blackjack table.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: I could go on and on. But if you think you're going to have an advantage mathematically against the casino, you're not going to last. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. That happens in Vegas a lot. You know, people are told don't, don't come back. Right? I mean, it's like— 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. 

Sean McCool: Do these companies share those, those people with each other? 

Matt Bakowicz: That is, that is a question I am going to pass on. I know you guys asked me a lot of stuff. And I pass. Well, and here's why I will pass on that. I don't, you know, one thing I learned as being a professor, we don't know the answer. Don't try to lie. 

Sean McCool: Oh, Okay. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: I don't, I don't know the actual answer of that one. So, I could never comment on that. I don't know the integral workings of communication with companies, even my time working. I truly don't know. 

Sean McCool: I would think no. Cause they, they're like, ah, you go take care of my competitor over there. You know, they'll just don't come back to our place, right? 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. But look, you know, it's my, if you guys did some, I know you probably did some research on me. You know, I was on NewsNation a couple of weeks ago and they asked me, they said ‘what's your thought process on all this?’ I said, look, legalized, regulated sports betting, what we have with Draft Kings and FanDuel and all these big companies is so much better of a system than the illegal market. 

Jonathan Taylor: Right. 

Matt Bakowicz: And all it is, is it's just, it's an infancy. We are, we are nursing a two, three year old child, a two, three year old child has no idea what's going on. By the time they're 18, 19 we'd like to think that we've imparted enough wisdom, knowledge, and good parental structure on that child to be successful in the world. We'll figure it out.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You'll have, you know, people will be okay. The system will be there. Look, it's not going anywhere. So, it's not like we can say gambling is going to be banned. It's been around since the wild west. It's going to be around for another a hundred years.

Sean McCool: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: Let's do it in a structured, positive way. And it'll just take some time and there'll be a lot of growing pains and we'll figure it out. And I applaud Senator Blumenthal. I'm a Connecticut guy.

He is one of the few senators that are working towards not so much regulation, but just making sure we have safeguards in place from people going down a slippery slope. And I give a shout out to him for, for that. And it, you know, it's a short list. He's– him and a representative from New York are the only two that are doing this right now. Two, three years, that's going to be a different story. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Wow. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Especially as they start getting bigger checks from the companies that are— 

Matt Bakowicz: Correct. You're exactly right. And– 

Sean McCool: Your campaign donations or whatever, whatever we're calling them these days.

Matt Bakowicz: Look, sports betting is not everything, any other, you know, large structure. There's marketing, there's lobby.

Sean McCool: I'm sure they have a huge lobby. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know, you can look at the public records of all those sports betting companies, the amount of money they spend on, again, marketing and lobbying. That's their biggest expense. 

Sean McCool: Because lobbying is marketing. I mean, it is. It may not show up that way on the spreadsheet, but that's what it is. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Exactly. 

Sean McCool: I mean, we're seeing that with the alcohol companies. They're all scrambling right now because marijuana has taken a huge chunk of their—.Marijuana infused drinks have taken over a huge chunk of their business. And there was a big New York times article today about Jim Beam having to close one of its, you know—. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: —distillery plants because Generation Z is now more on the top shelf alcohol. Jim Beam's alcohol percentage, I believe it's 32 and a half versus 40%. And individuals are, they're drinking the top or shelf. So, economics, marketing—.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: Plans, you know, we, it's a lot. It's never a simple answer, but I can– 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh, yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  I hope, I hope I was able to shed some light on some of these answers for you guys today. 

Sean McCool: No, I think it's, I think it's good. 

Jonathan Taylor: No, Absolutely. 

Sean McCool: I think the tips you gave are great. And, my tip would be to turn off push notifications, but that's, I do that anyway. I have very few push notifications on my phone. I just don't, don't do that. 

Matt Bakowicz: You know, I think that's good for anything. Especially news stories, shoot, you can, you can get 45. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: You have, you have all the big major news apps that's, that's through the roof. So, so yeah, are the companies trying to keep you there? Yes, there's no—.

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: There's no doubt about it. They want you to be a customer. But if you have a little bit of education knowledge, you can understand that and play responsibly and have some success. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz: And that's, that's kind of my, my message is just know where the information is coming from, arm yourself with knowledge, be responsible and look, enjoy. I mean, I'll admit it's fun winning a hundred bucks when you pick the right team and they do, you know, they do what they do at that particular time period. That is awesome. It's a great form of entertainment, but just remember, make sure it's entertainment, not your livelihood and you're doing it in a responsible way. 

Sean McCool: Yep. 

Jonathan Taylor: Good stuff. Matt, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you on today. 

Matt Bakowicz: Pleasure chatting with you guys. It was awesome. 

Sean McCool: Great. Yes.

Matt Bakowicz: Just looking at the clock, I can't believe we just talked for an hour and a half, an hour and 10 minutes. That was pretty, that was pretty awesome.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, time flies.

Matt Bakowicz: I hope I didn’t bore anybody. 

Sean McCool: So, real quick, before we close out, you mentioned before the show, you're actually, um, you're teaching, you've got a class going on this coming up. Is it this upcoming in, you know in— 

Matt Bakowicz: Yes. 

Sean McCool: Spring of 2026, the spring semester? 

Matt Bakowicz: Spring of 2026. We are looking at sports betting as a component. We're actually teaching a sports betting class, but it is the business of sports betting along with the link to entertainment. So we're looking at entertainment sports betting as a huge business model. Very excited about it. What we're going to do is we're going to look at exactly what I talked about today. How does sponsorship and marketing work from sports betting companies? How do you build an entertainment facility that encompasses everything? Good food, good music, good entertainment, a casino mindset. We're going to go to live in Maryland. Their casino, we're going to go to national Harbor. We're going to look at it from yes, sports betting is involved, but it's so much bigger. Like if you have an issue, how do you lobby that to Congress? If you are running something that's an entertainment perspective, like Coachella, how do you make sure every single component is together? So, sports betting is going to be part of it. It's our second unit. I'm very excited.

It's a new program. It's a special topic at American University. I can, I can pride myself in saying I'm the, one of the first professors to ever attempt this. And we've, we're standing room only. I have a wait list of students. 

Sean McCool: I'm sure. I'm certain of that. 

Matt Bakowicz: And on the one hand, I look at it from two perspectives. So, let's look at it from one. It's fun. It's cool to talk about. It's a fun topic, but I teach in a business school. You can't tell me that my business students are not going to go out into the world and interact with this. Maybe it's a contract. Maybe it's a sponsorship. Maybe it's a legality. I have, we have about 30, 35% of our students that want to go on to law school. You're going to be dealing with this litigation. So, why not go back to what I said in the beginning? 

Jonathan Taylor: That’s a good point. 

Matt Bakowicz: Teach from an educational standpoint, arm them with that knowledge and let's have some fun with it. I'm, I'm really excited. 

Jonathan Taylor: That's fantastic. Wow. I, you know, standing room only, right? I mean, that'll be–. 

Matt Bakowicz: But I will say this. You guys are welcome to come in and guest speak or come visit the campus. I've always had the mentality as a professor.I've been, this is a—. Shoot. I'm looking at my 10th year, 10th or 12th year as a professor. I always have the mentality. Anybody that wants to learn is welcome to my classroom. So, you guys want to come down and spend some time. The students will love chatting with you. Please, please come visit. 

Sean McCool: Very cool.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: Man, I haven't been to DC in a while. So, it'll be a fun place to get back to. So. 

Well, Matt, it's been fun having you on. I put your, your American University page, faculty page in the comments. So, yeah, we appreciate you being on. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah.

Matt Bakowicz: Thank you, guys. I really appreciate the chat and I hope I was able to provide you with some knowledge, information on that. 

Jonathan Taylor: You've been an incredible guest. You've been very, I love your energy. And so it's, it's, it's great having you.

Matt Bakowicz: I'll share with you one more fun thing. I'm trying to be the first professor sponsored by the Red Bull deal because everyone says I have high octane energy. So, you never know. I might be able to say, like Matt Bakowicz, Kogod School of Business, NIL deal Red Bull down the line. So, we're working on that. 

Jonathan Taylor: That's awesome. 

Sean McCool: They got their hands in just about everything. So, I wouldn't be surprised if you get that. 

Matt Bakowicz: Well, sounds great. Thank you guys so much.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Matt Bakowicz:  I really appreciate the conversation. 

Jonathan Taylor: We're going to let you go. We're going to close out, but have a wonderful Christmas. Have a great New Year's. Enjoy the holidays. And thanks again. 

Matt Bakowicz: Thank you so much. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. We'll see you. 

That was very good. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Yeah. He'd be a fun professor to take a class from. 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh, absolutely.I mean, I would love to have taken his class back in the day. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. That'd be fun. So, may have to go up and audit it or something. I don't know. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. It's going to be at American University. My old stomping ground for a little while while I was in the military was up there in D.C. Georgetown and all that stuff.

Jonathan Taylor: That's right. That's right.

Sean McCool: So, yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: You were part of that. Yeah. Doing the honor guard. Was that what you do? 

Sean McCool: Yeah. Yep. Doing the honor guard.

Jonathan Taylor: That's awesome. 

Sean McCool: We go downtown to Georgetown and, you know, there's us with the shaved heads and then there was the Georgetown students with the, you know, long flowing locks or whatever. So. 

Jonathan Taylor: Nice mix. 

Sean McCool: Easy to pull us apart. That was for sure. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, exactly. 

Sean McCool: You know. But yeah. Yeah. It was good stuff, man. Some good tips there that he gave out, and—.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Some stuff I was not aware of, though. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: So it's super interesting. It is a huge industry. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: So it's, it's good to kind of, you know, pull the, you know, pull the curtains back and kind of look behind and see what's really going on. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. I mean, I had a suspicion on the, like, the, the analysts and the, you know, probably, you know, what's his name? Steve that does the bets every week on. 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Sean McCool: On college game day. Like those three are probably sponsored by DraftKings or whichever one sponsors college game day. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: You know, it's probably not his picks. It's probably. It's all scripted. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. Oh yeah. Used to be the bear. Now it's like you said, Stanford Steve now is that he does the, he does the bets now on game day. Stanford Steve. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. So, you know, if you're following him, you're probably following house rules or whatever. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yep. Yeah. 

Sean McCool: So yeah. Gotta be careful. What's the old, the old saying from back in the day, the more, you know. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah, exactly. 

Sean McCool: So. 

Jonathan Taylor: Oh man. 

Sean McCool: All right. Well, we're going to be taking a little break. Not long. Actually just one week, right? 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. 

Sean McCool: And then. Yeah. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. We'll be back on the ninth. We'll start back up. We've got a great guest joining us on the ninth and yeah, we'll get back to it. So. 

Sean McCool: Yeah. You've got a couple of guests that have responded to some queries.

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sean McCool: So we should start out pretty strong next year. 

Jonathan Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. We've got some interesting topics to cover. Yeah. So, yeah. But this is it, man, for 2025. We hope everybody has a great Christmas this week. Has a great New Year's. You know, ends, kind of, you know, ends 2025 in a, in a great way. You know, be responsible, be safe, but, uh, have a great time. Enjoy the holidays. And I guess we'll see you next year as we say. 

Sean McCool: See ya. Yeah. See ya next year.